User talk:Ooswesthoesbes

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Things to think about[edit]

Hi. On some of the topics we were discussing over there ...

  • Practical name of the wiki = ? (but I agree: we don't have to decide today <grin>)
  • I'm sure we should have Extension:WikimediaIncubator here.
  • Since this is going to be a multilingual project, in principle I'd have Extension:Translate and Extension:UniversalLanguageSelector here. But I'm not sure how well they'll work—especially ULS—unless we have a feed of multilingual messages from translatewiki. And for the life of me I wouldn't know how to do that. (Unless you do, we're going to need help.)
  • Confirm with @Revi that we have that edit activity exemption in place.
  • I think you're allowed to edit the local interwiki map here. So probably you should add an interwiki to WM Incubator (probably "wmincubator" or something like that).
  • I think we should probably start out with CC 3.0, not 4.0. I'm sure 4.0 is better, but for right now all of the content at Wikimedia Incubator is only licensed at 3.0, so we'd have to inform people of that every single time we move something here. Just not worth the effort.
  • As far as adding to the Interwiki map over at Meta-Wiki, since I imagine [[:miraheze:]] should go to the main page of, I'm going to wait until we have a working name here so that I can point that to our local main page.

That's all I can think of for now. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:19, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

  • I'm pretty bad at coming up with names. Incubator Plus has already been taken, so Incubator Extra is all I can think of, but it sounds horrible. We probably should stick to Incubator Miraheze vs. Incubator (otherwise unspecified means Wikimedia).
  • Yes, if you know how to add it.
  • In general, my technical knowledge is very basic, so I don't even know what you mean exactly.
  • Yes.
  • I just checked the special pages, but I couldn't find any special page in which I can set the interwikis.
  • I found the special page to select the license, but 3.0 was not an option.
  • Yes, I agree. :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:30, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
  • I was thinking of "New Incubator Plus", myself. But I'm open to suggestions, too.
  • I can't see Special:ManageWiki, because you need 'crat privileges for that. But I think that at least certain extensions can be activated from that page (or maybe Special:ManageWikiExtensions). For others you have to go to Miraheze's phabricator. See m:ManageWiki.
  • Translator is the extension that allows people to translate pages that need to be multilingual. (Pages marked for translation are the ones that have Translate this page, often with a notice that the page has been changed since last markup.) ULS is the one that puts the multilingual control at the top of the page and lets you see the interface in your native language. My guess is that those two extensions can probably just be switched on at Special:ManageWiki (or maybe Special:ManageWikiExtensions).
    What I don't quite know is (a) just how much of this infrastructure is currently available at Incubator Plus, and (b) just how much we really need to provide, given that just about nobody here is going to be creating projects in languages likely to be found on translatewiki. That said, there may well be people who at least aren't fluent in English.
  • [skip]
  • I think I made a mistake about that. We may have to ask a steward. Eventually there will be a group here called interwiki-admin that will be able to handle if a 'crat requests. See m:Requests for Comment/Interwiki links editing.
  • I think we need to request 3.0 centrally, probably on phabricator. See m:ManageWiki#License.
  • [pending]
Have a good weekend. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:58, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Or maybe Incubator Plus 2.0, as we will probably abandon the Wikia version anyway.
  • I made you a crat so you can check it out yourself :)
  • Yes, I know the extensions, but I don't know how to enable them, as I couldn't find them in the list on the special pages.
  • (a) Incubator Plus basically lacks any infrastructure. No extensions have been enabled, and the little bits that were set up were made unusable due to Wikia's policy of becoming Fandom. I'll stop discussing that topic any further, because I'm fed up with Wikia now... :P (b) As, probably, most languages will be either unrecognized minority languages, historical languages, conlangs, or revival languages, it is safe to assume the editors are fluent in a language established at TranslateWiki, so enabling translations, especially for common languages such as French, Spanish, Chinese, Arabic, etc, makes sense.
  • Yes, that seems to be the way to handle that.
  • I can imagine that changing a license isn't too much of work to do, so Revi might be able to help us out there. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:46, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
My first-ever job was as a clerk-typist at NASA Headquarters in Washington, so I guess I’m an experienced bureaucrat. (;-)
ULS was already in. I found Translate and activated it. I also added WikiLove and the Sandbox link. And last, I added a skin, Vector Dark, which is good for a nighttime mode.
As for WikimediaIncubator, I think I want to talk to Robin (who wrote it) before we request installation. Mostly, the default info pages don’t work quite right, and I’m not sure how we manage langcodes that will never see the light of day at WMF. So I’d like an idea about those things before we start.
Are you going to contact communities on Incubator Plus one by one? Move Plus over at once? (I don’t think we should volunteer to move any project that took its own subdomain on Wikia, but probably if people come to ask us we can do that.
Finally, I’m going to try to recast the Miraheze logo in the Incubator logo colors and see what I get.
Thanks for being willing to help with the summer update. I’m actually going to be around a little less in the next few weeks, so it would be a help. I’ll write you over there explaining how I’ve been doing it when I’m actually n a computer, probably tomorrow. StevenJ81 (talk) 22:08, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
Very good :)
I'll put a notice on there, but I'm not going to move the projects unless they request to be moved (for now). More important is updating the links on the Wikimedia Incubator to here once we're ready. The other subdomains can be treated the same way, although I think chances are small they are willing to move from their own domain to a place where prefixes etc. are necessary.
That is very good as well :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:27, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
Inactivity exemption is granted, FYI. — revi 03:35, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
Requested interwiki map update at m:Stewards' noticeboard. StevenJ81 (talk) 23:01, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Section break (20:26, 31 July 2018 (UTC))[edit]

  1. The local interwiki map was updated. The prefix is wmincubator:, so your user page there is wmincubator:User:Ooswesthoesbes. (The change was not applied to Miraheze's global interwiki map.)
  2. When I start putting in config requests at phabricator, one that I'm surely going to request is that only 'crats can upload files. I do not want to have to start messing with EDPs. Only reason I'm even going to let us upload is so that we can potentially upload a wiki logo and xml archive files, nothing else.
  3. One other I'm thinking about depends on what you prefer: We could configure this wiki so that wmincubator: and wikia:c:incubatorplus are both permissible targets for transwiki importing. Then you (we?) wouldn't have to fuss with xml-based importing, at least from those sites. Is there a reason I'm not aware of that we shouldn't do that? StevenJ81 (talk) 20:26, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Oh, and I'm good with Incubator Plus 2.0. So that's now {{SITENAME}}. See Main Page. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:44, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

...but I'm also going to have to ask phabricator to restore the name of the Project: namespace to Incubator:, because Incubator Plus 2.0: is just too long. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:45, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
  1. Very good!
  2. I think that is good enough. Images can alternatively be linked to Commons.
  3. I'm only used to xml import, so I'm not too familiar with transwiki importing. However, I see no reason not to have transwiki import enabled. For small tests, it can be easy.
  4. I agree, we should keep the project namespace short, as it won't interfere with Wikimedia Incubator. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:50, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
Above added as phab:T3445. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:33, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
OK. They finished the phab task. But I'm seeing two bugs, still:
  • Sysops can still upload files (though "users" no longer can)
  • Something odd happened with the namespace adjustment. If you look, for example, at Special:AllPages, the drop-down box (for namespace) contains "Incubator:" twice. But at the moment it can't find the only page I've created in that namespace (a test page called I:Community Portal) unless you search using the second one. I'm going to hold off on asking for these corrections for a day or two, because I don't want them to start thinking of me as a pain in the backside, and because I'm wondering if some system-wide database upload is necessary before that completely resolves.
    Note, though, that the aliases I: and IT: now work.
In order for transwiki import to work from (old) Incubator Plus, they had to create a prefix. So that is now wikiaincubatorplus:. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:59, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
  • I don't know whether that's a problem. Are we going to make the sysop status the test admin status or are we simply not allowing test admins? As they will not get their own subdomain, test admins seems rather unnecessary.
  • That is something that should be addressed indeed.
  • I noticed the new interwiki, which is good :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:22, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
I thought wikimediaincubator extension included test-sysop by default. (Correct me if it is not) — revi 11:15, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
That could very well be the case. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 11:31, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure it does, at that.
I think we'd want something like test-sysop anyway. It's one thing for such people to manage their tests, and we can definitely discuss whether the associated set of rights shouldn't be broadened some. After all, I'm thinking that once this is running we're not going to manage it as tightly as we do WM Incubator. On the other hand, I doubt we want to give everyone managing a test the full sysop toolbox, either.
In that spirit, we can probably let sysops as well as 'crats upload files. Anyone who is actually promoted to (full) sysop is going to understand the upload policy. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:17, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
I agree, though I must also say that this site probably requires way less management than Wikimedia Incubator, as it probably won't get as active.
The one question that remains: on Wikia Incubator, some tests actually used images. How are we going to deal with these? --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:11, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
I don't want to host images at all. Instant Commons is loaded here, so we don't really need to have images. Any images in Wikia Incubator that cannot go on Commons have to go, I think. I'm leaving you and me upload rights, but aside from logos (which I did upload today) and .xml archive files, I don't want files here, either. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:57, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
The main issue lies in tests such as this one, which uses images to represent invented characters. Shall we just leave them at wikia then? --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 09:02, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

That's what I'm inclined to do. I certainly don't want to allow "fair use" files here.
In theory, I suppose we could consider allowing anything that an individual has created and is willing to license under CC0 or CC BY-SA. But frankly, I don't want the responsibility of making sure that people aren't really violating copyrights. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:59, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

I agree. I think we lack the man power to check all images. Also, the creation of the necessary infrastructure is a lot of work. If people want to upload their own images, they can do so at Commons. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:30, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

August 15[edit]

phabricator:T3492 has the request to activate the WMIncubator extension and to fix the odd problems with the Incubator: namespace. I also put in a request at Stewards' noticeboard to have the iso639-3: interwiki added to our table. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:45, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Very good, thank you! :) What do you mean with the iso639-3 interwiki? --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:29, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
The iso639-3 interwiki is available on WM Incubator and other WMF projects. iso639-3:lad, for example, takes you directly to the listing at SIL for lad (Ladino, or Judeo-Spanish). It's really for quick reference for you and me. (And you can actually link any ISO code (-1, -2, -3 or -5) and it will work. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:29, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
Ah, like that. That's very useful indeed! :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 13:56, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

OK. The namespace issues are fixed, including a follow-up problem that the I: and IT: aliases were pointing to now-deleted namespaces. All of that now works properly.
Incubator extension is installed, but phabricator needs us to decide on configuration variables. Starting with the items in the section I linked, here are my thoughts and/or questions:
$wmincProjects and $wmincSisterProjects:

  • I certainly don't see a reason why we wouldn't, at minimum, have wp, wt, wb, wq, wy in the first group. Nearly all the projects currently in wikiaincubatorplus: are Wikipedias and Wiktionaries. There aren't currently wq or wy projects there, but I don't see where there's such a big issue if someone wants to create one. There is one wb—a Simple English one. And while in that specific case I'd really encourage those people to create SE books within English Wikibooks, in principle there's no problem on that, either.
  • Here are cases that I am less certain about how to proceed:
    (a) Wn. There's only one, a Simple English Wikinews that doesn't look like it's been touched in years. Do we want to be in the news publishing business if someone wants to create something? The current, official Wn projects are mostly unsuccessful as it is. I'm inclined to say no. If we say yes, though, can we do it without using DynamicPageList (or DynamicPageList3)? Do you know those extensions? I don't, and I don't especially want to support those extensions unless you do know them.
    (b) Wv. There's only one, and it contains a single lesson by the creator of this Eezee language as to how to speak it. In that respect, I don't mind hosting very simple "Wikiversities" like that, although things like that could as easily be placed in a WP, WT or WB project, too. I especially don't want to start supporting wv-only extensions of the sort they have on Beta, like Quiz, because I don't know them. And I'm not really even sure how languages of the sort we would host here would ever really be able to support something like a Wikiversity. The lack of them on the current Plus says a lot. On this one, I'd like either to say "no" or to say "yes, but we will not support wv-specific extensions here.
    Note on (a) and (b) One reason to give the limited "yes" answers above is simply to make the transition smooth, and to make it seem like we're not really micromanaging this: "If you want to create something, create it. Our only limitation is that we're not supporting [such-and-such].
    (c) Ws. There are currently none of these. Given that oldwikisource allows content in otherwise-ineligible extinct and historical languages, I'm not sure who would ever start one of these, except perhaps for someone writing in an artificial language that is in wide enough use to have source material, but not in wide enough use for WMF to allow. And at that I'm not even sure oldwikisource wouldn't allow them. Thoughts?
    (d) All other. One of the early items on the Main Page talk page at Plus is about allowing "other" types of projects. At the time, it was recommended that those go to something called "scratchpad" at Wikia. Scratchpad is no longer open, because it is now very easy for people to open a new wiki on Wikia (or, for that matter, on Miraheze). We have one such project currently, a "Korean WikiSport". Aside from the question of whether such a thing would be considered a trademark issue by WMF, do we want such projects, or would we rather have them establish themselves elsewhere? What about the current one (if it's even active)?

Just a couple of other notes here:

  • It's not clear to me that even a lot of the "active" projects listed at Plus are even active. Do we leave truly dormant projects there?
  • Current license there may be CC BY-SA 2.5, so I'll probably add a note to what you wrote stating that all moved projects will have their licenses updated to that.

More configuration questions to follow later. But I do have a day job. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:40, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

@Revi: Your opinions on this stuff welcome, too! StevenJ81 (talk) 14:47, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
  1. Wn: I think you're going to do DPL or you're doing the listings manually. And I don't think we need to keep that dormant wiki here - maybe just store the XML somewhere safe in case someone is really interested and can start with the old details so they know what it used to be. (Being news site, old data is probably useless because news focuses on now.)
  2. I don't know what is wikiversity-specific extensions, but I think they can live without the extensions. And just one page, I don't think it hurts to store them.
  3. (Skipped Ws) I don't think WikiSport is trademarked by WMF (I think we'll need to confirm but I'm pretty sure the answer is negative) Things that are currently here - I think I can help them getting a new wiki, but that means they're no longer getting the protection of incubatorwiki's dormancy rules exemption (hehe).
  4. I don't see any harm importing everything marked as active - if we don't micromanage, it's just better to be inclusive, I think.
  5. For the sake of simplicity, I'd rather upgrade the license but I think we need some sort of transitioning method, I don't think we can blindly mark everything as 3.0.
revi 14:59, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with wp, wt, wb, wq, and wy.
  1. @Wn: While I understand your reasoning, I don't see why we shouldn't allow it. It probably is not going to take up a lot of space/monitoring. I used DynamicPageList at Wn/li, so I know how the input works. I'm not familiar with the technical side and whether it's difficult to implement it.
  2. @Wv: The same reasoning as Wn. While in general it can fit the other projects, it's probably easier and simpler to understand for other users to keep it here as well.
  3. @Ws: Oldwikisource does not include new languages that are not eligible for their own subdomain, so therefore we can allow Wikisource here.
  4. @WikiSport: it can remain at Wikia. I don't think there's any need for new projects on this wiki. I'm afraid it's going to become too messy. Any new proposals for projects can try out at their own wikis.
  5. @Active: I agree with moving over anything that is marked active, even if they're probably not active anymore. We can still message the original creators prior to moving whether they agree with migrating and license change.
--Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 15:07, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
OK. Let me summarize:
  • We're going to allow any of the seven project types here. (There will be no project types in the $wmincSisterProjects list.)
    With Wn, we're ok with DPL. (I'm not going to turn it on until we need it, but it's available through Special:ManageWikiExtensions. Do you want DPL or DPL3?) With Wv, we're not going to support extra extensions like Quiz. With Ws, we'll allow, but if anyone tries to create one in a "real, but historical/extinct" language, we'll encourage them to go to oldwikisource: first.
  • We're going to offer to import all tests listed as something other than "off" on Incubator Plus's main page (table reproduced at Template:Wikiatests). There are only two exceptions: Korean Wikisport (out of scope, stays at Wikia) and Simple English Wikinews (obsolete news site). We can decide about the "off" ones later.
    We will need to have some means of contacting content creators and asking them if upgrading license is satisfactory. (Question: is a general notice that "moving" constitutes acceptance of a license update sufficient—at least for communities where there is current activity?)
    We can upload an XML of that Simple English Wikinews to our filespace if content creators agree to a license upgrade.
    Per higher on the page: we're not hosting images, even free ones. Only sysops can upload files, and the only files permitted will be (a) project logos and (b) XML archives of content contributed here (or that Simple English news one, maybe). I'm still waiting to hear back from WM Trademarks about the logo.
StevenJ81 (talk) 17:52, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Continuing with configuration variables ...

  • $wmincProjectSite (the name used as your "default test" if you pick "maintenance" as your test: In place of "Incubator" and short version "inc", probably "Incubator Plus" and "incplus".
  • $wmincLangCodeLength = 12; Maximum language code length: Why not?
  • $wmincExistingWikis (database of wikis with existing codes) and $wmincClosedWikis (database of closed wikis): Probably should be blank/null here.
  • $wgGroupPermissions for the extension right viewuserlang is false for most people, true for sysop.
  • Info Pages: I'm not sure how these are even going to behave here. Let me skip this configuration bit for the moment. (I'll come back to it.)

That's not quite everything, but it's most of what's left. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:08, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

@Wn: I think DPL is sufficient.

@Ws: I agree that historical languages have a place at Oldwikisource.

@Wikia: I think the best way would be to simply content the main contributors on their talk page prior to moving a test and give them one week time to react.

@XML: Sure, although I still think there should be a place for them at en.wn, as that wiki itself is not really that active. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:17, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

OK. I put everything into phabricator. Let's see what happens when this all gets turned on. Meanwhile, have a good weekend, and thanks for your massive work in plowing through the projects on WM Incubator! StevenJ81 (talk) 20:19, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Very good, thank you! :) @WM: No problem :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:23, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Request for admin[edit]

Hey, can I get an admin temporarily (few hours to two days are fine)? Looks like you've got some bad names and afaik it cannot be deleted in a normal way (delete buttons, I mean). I can do that, but I need admin bits to delete it, we all know that :) — revi 14:11, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Doing. As far as I'm concerned, you can keep the bit at minimum until we really get this underway. Your help in configuring things here will be greatly appreciated. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:41, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
Thank you! I deleted the pages. — revi 14:44, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
I propose you keep the admin state for the time being. I see no reason why you can't be admin here, as you've proven yourself to be very useful to have around :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 15:08, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
That makes this a very top-heavy wiki. Ratio of sysops to "ordinary" users (defined as one regular edit) is, well, ∞. (Of course, adding Revi didn't change that, unless you consider 2/0 > 3/0 a change.) StevenJ81 (talk) 17:30, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
I don't think that's very important in this case. And also, we are still in the development phase. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:11, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

August 23: Infrastructure and such[edit]

  1. The issue of the Incubator Extension is still pending on the phabricator, and in any event I'm thinking about what happens if doesn't really work right here. On the whole, I'm not sure it's absolutely essential that we get the extension working. In my view, there are just a couple of things from the extension that I really, really want, and a couple of others that would be "very nice to have". The rest could end up being more complicated than would be worthwhile.
    • I really, really want: (i) Test-administrators, and (ii) no unprefixed pages in mainspace [and except for infrastructure, in Template, Module, Category spaces). I think (i) can be implemented independently of the extension; (ii) we'd have to enforce, but unless I miss my guess it won't be that hard to do, if we set a rule in place that unprefixed pages immediately get "userfied" without further notification.
    • "Nice to have": Search within tests, random pages within tests, new pages within tests, recent changes within tests, and all the other things like that. They do make life a lot easier. On the other hand, since projects here will generally not be moving anywhere, our need to monitor such things—test activity, and what have you—will be a lot lower here than it is on WM Incubator.
  2. Meanwhile, we need to start creating/importing at least minimal infrastructure: Home page, community portal, admins' noticeboard, some pages on standards and rules, some infrastructure templates. I'll start playing with this over the next few days; I'll take care of this, at least initially, because I'm counting on you to do the heavy lifting on transferring contents here once we're open for business. (But feel free—and you, too, @Revi.)
    • Probably this user talk page will get moved to become an archive of either AN or CP, leaving you a clean user talk page for "regular business". (OK?) Some things on my user talk page will be integrated.
  3. Target date to open: 1 September? 15 September?

StevenJ81 (talk) 15:54, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

  1. I agree, although with the expected activity levels here, I don't think having unprefixed pages will become to hard to manage. Although, it will be easy :)
  2. Sure, go ahead :) I will import the tests once we know more about the enabling of the incubator extension and how that will work on non-standard prefixes.
  3. Yes :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 09:10, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
    1. Not sure if abusefilter can do the trick (if we can't do Incubator ext.)
    2. Search in Miraheze is not as powerful as Wikimedia does - it lacks w:Elasticsearch, which is the powerful search engine backing Wikimedia search backend. (And miraheze folks are not going to install it.)
    3. I'll keep an eye on the import stuff and try to import other (possibly) useful stuff. :)
    4. Either time is fine to me! — revi 16:43, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

(As you saw, OWTB, WMF Legal turned down our logo, and I've taken it down. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:17, 24 August 2018 (UTC))

Yes, I saw it too. Let's keep the Miraheze logo for now. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:29, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Not going to be ready 1 September (which is Saturday). Going to aim for 15 September. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:29, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Well, there is no reason to be hasty as this is a side project anyway. So take your time :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 15:32, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

6 September and the Incubator extension is in operation[edit]

The good news is: The WikimediaIncubator extension was turned on today. On an admittedly quick check, here's what seems to be working right, and here's what doesn't. (Feel free to add, so we have a single repository for these.)

Working correctly Working somewhat Not working right
  • Admins can create unprefixed pages (but have to jump through a couple of minor hoops to do so, as on WM Incubator). "Regular" users cannot.
    I created my faux-nez, User:SJ81 so that I can test such things.
  • Test-administrator. Can grant and ungrant. Test-sysop can delete pages and block, but cannot create unprefixed pages.
  • Special:RandomByTest seems to work. Special:RecentChanges has the "by test" functionality available. But the links in the sidebar allowing easy access to that functionality are not present. Links now present per below, but the "Main Page" goes to the Info Page, not to the Main Page. Investigating.
  • Test-administrator. The right exists, but for the moment only stewards seem to be able to grant it. Request in at phabricator. Fixed already.
  • Info Pages: Right now, "the default infopage" is an error message. One can create such a page; one is instructed to fill in {{Test wiki}}—which I haven't imported yet—but that message includes "Request on Meta", which should be removed. I'll have to work on that.
  • (Non-sysop) Creating pages with language codes of other than two or three letters.

Just FYI: I'm going to be away off and on the next several weeks because of all the Jewish holidays. StevenJ81 (talk) 22:29, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

@creating unprefixed pages: To be honest, I have no idea how to do such thing. What are the hoops?
@Random/RC by test: I added it in MediaWiki:Sidebar. Does it function now?
@Jewish holidays: No problem, enjoy it :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:27, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
@creating unprefixed pages: Let's say you want to create Football. If you go to search, one of three things will happen:
  • If you haven't selected "your" test, it will ask you to do that.
  • If you have selected a test (say, Wn/nl), it will invite you to create Wn/nl/Football
  • If you have selected "Maintenance", it will invite you to create Incubator:Football. (We're going to pretend you did the third for this illustration.)
If you click on the redlink of "Incubator:Football", you'll open a new page creation, and the URL will end with .../w/index.php?title=Incubator:Football&action=edit&redlink=1. You have to manually change the URL so that it ends .../w/index.php?title=Football&action=edit&redlink=1 (with no prefix or namespace). Then you'll get a new page creation for the unprefixed page. (Only sysops are allowed to do this; test-sysops are not.) This should also be true for unprefixed pages in "Template", "Category" and "Module", too, though I haven't tested those yet. (And, in truth, in mainspace, I doubt we'd ever really even need to do this, except perhaps to create some shortcuts to Incubator:/Help: pages.)
@Random/RC by test: Also needed MediaWiki:Sidebar-testwiki and MediaWiki:Sidebar-testwiki-mainpage, but now working properly (more or less). (Main page goes to the info page, not the notional main page, which is different from the behavior on WM Incubator. Clearly it's related to the functionality of the special page "Special:MyMainPage". On the whole, that's probably OK, but I'd like to figure out why.)
@Jewish holidays: Thank you!
@Info pages: @Revi: Does either of you have a reliable way to reach SPQRobin so that he will actually answer? I'd just like to ask him about this.
I created notional pages at Wp/fr and Wp/fr/Accueil for testing purposes, and they remind me that I need to import {{Test wiki}} here, in a way that is WM-Incubator-compatible but gets rid of options that are irrelevant here (like "invalid code"). I hope to do that mid-next-week, after Rosh Hashanah. Once I've done that, I'm thinking we should test-drive this with a limited number of real tests while we finish our setup here.
  • I think we might import two from WM Incubator: Wp/pox and Wt/pox, the ones recently discussed at I:RFD. Tell wmincubator:User:Phillip0703 that you'd like to do this, and invite him to be a test-sysop for, say, three months, so we can really give that functionality a real test.
  • We should also bring in two from Wikia Incubator Plus. Check activity over there, but I'm guessing you might try Wp/ine (proto-Indo-European) and Wp/prs (Dari). (I don't think I'd flag anyone from those tests immediately, BTW.) Let's see how that shakes out, with a target to start importing more generally by around October 1. Reasonable? StevenJ81 (talk) 14:34, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
@creating unprefixed pages: Ah right, I never selected the Maintenance option, so that's probably the issue there. Thank you for the explanation :)
@info pages: I got him on Facebook, so I can drop a message if you'd like. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 15:17, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
@unprefixed: If you had selected Wn/nl, you'd simply be changing the URL from .../w/index.php?title=Wn/nl/Football&action=edit&redlink=1, instead. That's all.
@Robin: That would be great. For starters, I sent him an email on 7 August at 13:01 UTC to "". (I copied you.) If I should resend to a different place I will. (And I'm not on Facebook.)
  • I can appreciate it if he doesn't really want to work on it anymore, but perhaps he could answer the questions, especially in part 1.
  • The part 2 questions are mostly answered. (The one that hasn't come up here yet: the extension does not create a blacklist or whitelist.) The questions I have instead are as follows:
  1. "Info pages" are showing an error. We didn't create $wmincExistingWikis = $wgLocalDatabases; because there are no local databases on Miraheze. Do we need something for $wmincExistingWikis =, and can/should it be blank?
    • We also didn't add $wmincMultilingualProjects. Does it need to exist?
    • Alternatively, is there an easy way to suppress the auto info pages entirely?
  2. Why does "Special:MyMainPage" point to info page of test rather than main page of test?
  3. Is there any way to override the need for language codes to be two or three letters long? (They don't actually have to be valid language codes, but they do need to be 2-letter codes or 3-letter codes. I couldn't create "Wp/ugly", for example.)
Thanks! StevenJ81 (talk) 16:03, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
I sent SPQ a message. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:58, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, I had a real life issue that prevented me from the internet, so couldn't check the internet. I am also connected with him via FB and some other super secret cabal, but I'm late, heh. — revi 11:43, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

OK. Jacek Janowski nr1 (talk) 11:30, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Ferskuuwenge foan dæn Æriska wiki[edit]

Ek woul die frægje uum dæn Æriska wiki tau ferskuuwe nau heer. Is dät muugelik dät tau måkje af 'ei dät annere konsekwensjes ðie ek ljoowere nit sja? Min fråge kuum foar uut die unmuugelikhet noch tau bioarbeidje. Ek kan bienau niks noch finda. It idee is uum aan wiki af wiki-unnerdæl ån tau måkje ðie stit foar aa waudebouk en aan encyclopedie. RJ1992Tw (talk) 12:45, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

De Aeres wiki kan inderdaad gewoon naar hier worden geëxporteerd.
De grootste voordelen zijn dat je de Wikipedia-"ervaring" terugkrijgt en dat je geen bestanden hoeft up te loaden vanuit Commons. Deze kun je hier direct gebruiken.
Wat betreft de Aeres wiki is er één groot nadeel, en dat is dat je niet meer de systeemberichten kunt vertalen. Een ander nadeel is dat je altijd de voorvoegselen moet gebruiken op de pagina's (Wp/aer), dus je kunt niet iets [[zo linken]], maar enkel [[Wp/aer/Zo linken|zo linken]].
Een eventuele oplossing voor dat laatste is het oprichten van een aparte wiki, maar in tegenstelling tot Wikia wordt niet gegarandeerd dat de wiki blijft bestaan. Daarvoor moet de wiki namelijk actief blijven. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 16:35, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
Ek toank ðæt disse soo die besti opsie is. Kost it fil meedi dæn wiki tau exporteare nau heer? RJ1992Tw (talk) 12:56, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
De eerlijkheid gebiedt mij te zeggen dat ik dat niet weet. Op Aeres Wikia zijn geen voorvoegsels. Ik zou niet weten hoeveel werk het is dat eventueel geautomatiseerd toe te voegen. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 10:30, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Last items before really opening[edit]

Hi, OWTB. I think we're actually about ready to open, now that you have checked the possibility of "funky" langcodes being allowed as long as they are in the "validcode" subtemplate. There are only two other things I'd like to see:

  1. To get the appearance of {{Test wiki}} fixed. For that I think we need the help of @Revi. I think there are css classes in Incubator that need to be brought here for that to work properly—in particular, all the classes "testwiki testwiki-[status]". Can you help with that, Revi? Or do I need to go to phabricator for that?
  2. To change the "MediaWiki:Wminc-infopage-title-[code] series of messages from
    • Wikipedia > Encyclopedia
    • Wiktionary > Dictionary
    so as not to run afoul of WMF.

Thoughts? StevenJ81 (talk) 15:35, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

I support the idea. --Agusbou2015 (talk) 16:03, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
I agree with that, but unfortunately I have no idea how to do that. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 11:34, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
I'll do it in the next few days. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:12, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Giving this place some attention[edit]

I know I owe this place some attention. You'll notice I haven't pushed things along so well at RFL or in Incubator, and haven't even thought about a new Incubator update yet. Just been very busy IRL. Will see what I can do once Passover has, well, passed over. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:28, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm in a similar situation. It's a busy period :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:47, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Import issues[edit]

I don't get this done, so I left a message at the stewards :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 14:08, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I created a phabricator item, so this one should be resolved soon :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 19:32, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Did you import Incubator Plus in its entirety from Wikia/Fandom? Wow! If it still exists there, I'll leave some of the infrastructure at WM Incubator alone. If it was deleted there, I will change everything there simply to point here. (And I think I need to ask WM Phabricator to add this to our IW links there.)
There are some things we need to start untangling.
  • We have Incubator:Main Page, which is the imported page from old Incubator Plus, and which I generally duplicated already at {{Wikiatests}}.
  • We have Main Page, which was the page we created while we were under construction. I'd still rather see an update of this be the main landing page, not the imported page.
  • We have the Incubator Plus:Main Page non-page. Didn't we ask phabricator to get rid of that namespace?
StevenJ81 (talk) 22:01, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
The entirety has been imported, but the Wikia version will remain.
The Incubator Plus namespace is now renamed to Incubator (as you can see by clicking on the namespace menu on RC).
I agree that the best way is to use the Main Page design and elaborate on that. Instead of adding a list of all tests, the best way might be adding a list of the most-active or largest tests. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 10:00, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
I'll do that, then.
I think we probably need to have phabricator import the various "testwiki" classes from WM Incubator so that the {{Test wiki}} infopages render correctly, no? StevenJ81 (talk) 14:03, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
If you think that it's necessary, I guess so. To me, the test wiki template is too difficult to understand, as my wiki syntax is only very basic. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 14:11, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Real Community Portal page[edit]

Hi, OWTB. I'm thinking it's time to move this page to I:CP. The only item I'm wondering about is the one in Dutch (#6). Does that move, or does that stay on your talk page? StevenJ81 (talk) 15:18, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

I think you can simply move the entire page. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:00, 22 October 2019 (UTC)


(See User talk:StevenJ81#Codes.)

When you checked this before, did you check it with your account, or as an IP, or with a random non-sysop account? I used my account User:SJ81 (confirmed, now autoconfirmed) to check these, and here is what I came up with:

  • Can create any page prefixed with a project plus any two- or three-letter code, valid or not. (This seems to be true even for IP editors.)
  • It seems that you can put any code into your preferences when choosing your test wiki. When you do that, you can create any page with that test's prefix. (This seems to prevent IP editors from doing so, because you need an account to select a preferred test wiki. I didn't check whether I could do this as an IP by manually editing the url, but I'm less worried that someone would bother with this.) It doesn't seem to matter whether it's in {{Test wiki/validcode}} or not.

Remember that your account is a sysop account that can do anything, pretty much.

Note also that we don't have MediaWiki:Titleblacklist copied in from WM Incubator yet. That might change things a lot. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:25, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

I believe I checked with my normal sysop account.
Testing out what you write here, I get different results: any two or three letter code functions; extended or four letter codes disable me from creating pages, even when I insert them in my preferences. For now, this is probably enough. As we are less concerned about the validity of codes than wikimedia incubator.
Is it necessary to copy Titleblacklist? --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:04, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Proto-Indo-European Wikipedia[edit]

Hi. 4 years back in 2016, there was some discussion going on the talk page of Wp/ine/Gᵘ̯ei̯topəutiom to name the current Proto-Indo-European Wikipedia as non-laryngeal PIE while simultaneously create a new 1 named as laryngeal PIE. Is there any update/progress on this. Has the new 1 been created? If not, will the new 1 be created? I asked these questions on the talk page but haven't received any response. Hope I get 1 here. Danishjaveed1 (talk) 01:26, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, only the non-laryngeal one exists. As you can see, it is inactive, so I don't expect one with laryngeals to be created anytime soon. You are always free to set up one yourself of course :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 15:25, 3 June 2020 (UTC)


Hi. So I wanted to know if a Wikipedia has to be rejected by Wikimedia Incubator to be here or can it be created here directly? For example, Proto-Semitic Wikipedia is a wikipedia which will most probably never be accepted by Wikimedia Incubator. So. Instead. Could one create it here directly or does one have to go through the whole process and send the request, have it rejected and then come here and create it? Danishjaveed1 (talk) 21:26, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

It can be created here right away. Especially if a language has no real ISO-code, as it cannot be created on Wikimedia Incubator without one. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 06:07, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

The name Wikipedia[edit]

Is it a rule to have the name of different wikipedias in different languages be spelled in a way to sound similar to if not exactly like the word wikipedia is pronounced in english? Danishjaveed1 (talk) 21:32, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

You can use whatever term you want, although it is preferred to keep the "wiki-" part or something similar in the name. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 06:08, 16 June 2020 (UTC)


Is het niet mogelijk om hier afbeeldingen te plaatsen?--Ojjo (talk) 16:16, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

@User:Ojjo: Normaal gesproken wel. Sowieso werken alle afbeeldingen op Wikimedia Commons ook hier. Probeer anders eens via Special:Upload. Als dat niet lukt, dan moet daar wel een foutmelding uitkomen en dan kan ik verder kijken wat ik voor je kan betekenen :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 16:27, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
Dit is het resultaat:

Fouten in rechten Naar navigatie springen Naar zoeken springen U hebt geen toestemming om dit bestand te uploaden, want:

De gevraagde handeling is voorbehouden aan gebruikers in een van de volgende groepen: bureaucraten, beheyrders.--Ojjo (talk) 16:31, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

@User:Ojjo: Ik heb het een en ander veranderd. Probeer het nogmaals, wellicht dat het nu lukt :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 16:34, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
Nu lukt het perfect, bedankt!--Ojjo (talk) 16:39, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Nieuwe artikels[edit]

Deze pagina bevat geen tekst. U kunt naar deze term zoeken in andere pagina's of de logboeken doorzoeken, maar u mag de pagina niet aanmaken.

Het is ook niet mogelijk om nieuwe artikels aan te maken, kan dat ook aangepast worden? --2A02:1812:141B:3A00:55A1:C79:395:A278 11:55, 21 October 2020 (UTC) --Ojjo (talk) 11:56, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Geen idee... Ik denk dat het te maken heeft met de vierletterige code. Wat ik voorstel is om het hele project te verplaatsen naar een drieletterige code (zoals "Wp/ovl"); dan werkt het wel. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 13:00, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
Voor mij is de drieletterige code ovl geen probleem, het voornaamste is dat er nieuwe artikels kunnen komen.--Ojjo (talk) 16:24, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
Prima! Dan is het probleem opgelost :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 17:03, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Northumbrian Incubator?[edit]

Hello, @Ooswesthoesbes. According to Incubator:Incubator_Codes and Incubator:Languages I have to contact an admin about getting an incubator set up on the site and to be given a language code?

Northumbrian is an Anglic variety spoken in the North East of England which some are trying to promote as a language and give it language status. There is even a Northumbrian Language Society dedicated to promoting it as such, too. This isn't to be confused with Northumbrian Old English. This is a series of modern dialects, which include Geordie and Pitmatic.

However, the language doesn't have an ISO code, so we can't make an Incubator on the WMF Wiki. Is it possible to create one on Incubator Plus?

Thanks. -Cobra 3000 (talk) 17:21, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

This one :) I will set you up at Wp/nhb. Please make sure all pages you create have the "Wp/nhb/"-prefix, and all internal links are formatted like this: [[Wp/nhb/Page|page]], which results in: page. You can use any images from Wikimedia Commons directly here.
I wish you the best luck with promoting your local language. Many of them unfortunately are undervalued, but it seems the times are changing. In Sweden they finally recognized Elfdalian, which is a good start, so hopefully Northumbrian and others will soon follow :)
Of course, in the eventuality that Northumbrian gets a real code, it is always possible to move it to the real Incubator, or directly to a new Wikimedia subdomain (depending on activity). --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:37, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Thank you so much! We've made some articles on a fandom Wiki. Is it possible to import them to the Incubator, or would we have to do it manually? Thanks! -Cobra 3000 (talk) 10:02, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
I imported the pages. Let me know if anything is missing. Please note, I'm unable to import images. If they come from Commons, simply use the original images. Otherwise, you have to upload them on Commons, as uploading is disabled on this wiki. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 10:29, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Okay, thank you so much! By the way, it turns out "nhb" is already taken by another language, would this pose a problem? If so, we've found out that "nth" hasn't been assigned. -Cobra 3000 (talk) 13:13, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
No, this is not a problem. If the test is exported to Wikimedia, a code is very easily changed. We need to use three-letter codes here for technical reasons, and most are assigned. If you prefer "nth", then I can of course move it for you :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 13:15, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, I think I want it changed. Getting a little OCD over it. Thanks. One last thing. I tried to move an article because I wanted it's title changed, but it keeps stopping me, saying "I can't perform too many actions at once". What do I do? -Cobra 3000 (talk) 13:57, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Done :) I'm not sure what's causing that. If you keep having this issue, you can always ask me to move it for you, as moving seems to be no problem for me. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 14:50, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Thank you so much! :D I just want to change all instances of "Northumbrian" to "Nuthumbryen", since that is what the language is called in the language itself, but have "Northumbrian" redirect to it? Thanks. -Cobra 3000 (talk) 15:25, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Alright, that's done :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 15:32, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Alright, thank you so much! :D -Cobra 3000 (talk) 15:43, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Moving pages[edit]

Hello Ooswesthoesbes! I'm working on the Northumbrian project and I noticed that we can't move pages. Are we doing something wrong or do we need a sysop to move pages? Oh and also, are the project admins that can perform certain tasks on "their" project? --Lacey (red mit mia) 21:12, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi! :) I think this is due to you being new users on this site. Try moving a page when you are working here for 4 days and have about 50, maybe it works then. With regards to project admins, yes, we have the test administrator function installed. Test administrators are basically just normal administrators minus a few functions. While they can perform actions outside of their test, this is discouraged. Once your test gets momentum, a longstanding user can apply for test adminship :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:49, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
Hello! Thanks for your reply! That was indeed the reason why I couldn't move pages. --Lacey (red mit mia) 20:27, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Adding project languages to Babel[edit]

And hello again! Is it possible to create new Babel userboxes that work with {{#babel:}}. And if so, how do I do it? --Lacey (red mit mia) 20:27, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm not that well known with that extension, but according to MediaWiki it's possible, so I suggest you try that out :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 21:39, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Found out how the Babel thing works and what's causing issues. The local version of Babel has the prefix Template:User_ "hardcoded", so it can't call boxes with a project prefix. Would you mind moving {{Wp/pgh/User pgh-1}} and {{Wp/pgh/User pgh}} to unprefixed versions of themselves, so they can be used with the Babel extension? --Lacey (red mit mia) 17:37, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Done :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 18:58, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Bedankt! : ) --Lacey (red mit mia) 20:10, 16 February 2021 (UTC)