Talk:Wp/enm/Mayne Page

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(Newe Engliſch) This is the main discussion page of Middle English Wikipedia.


Moved from "Talk:Wp/enm/" --Kaganer 18:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

very cool. But how do we know what time period the text should be from and geographical location?

What do you qualify as "Middle English"? The Middle English of "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" was contemporary with Chaucer's middle English, except they look nothing the same (Sir Gawain is written in a much more conservative, northern dialect). Perhaps you should say something like "All English used by Chaucer and Monmoth (sp?) is acceptable ME". Also, maybe, you should outline certain sound changes, spelling rules etc for people who want to contribute to this test wiki. All the best, Bryan BryanAJParry
I think it shouldn't matter what dialect you write in. On the Modern English Wikipedia, people post in British as well as American English so if you are reading an article, it might switch between American and British English. So in the Middle English Wikipedia, there could be different dialects, however different, even in the same article. -- Wikitiki89 23:55, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Hallo. It is trewe, as Briane haþ seyde, when ðæt man sholde scryven as in ðis cas in middel anglise, þat suiche a nam is brodre than man wolde ðinken, for it refereð to a period of foure hundred yaren, in which many different scrives manneren. Peradventure 'twere bettre þæt we formed some sort of concordat on ðis, but I fere þæt ðis coulde forfenden and demarken forcome contributiouns. IINAG

Hi. I started this wiki, but I've been a bit behind in keeping up with it. I'd say early middle English, using þ and yogh, with the full verb declension (ich stande, þou standest, he standeþ, we/ye/þey standeþ). We should probably decide on acceptable variations on OE for the wiki. --JamesR1701E 08:00, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

I think that multiple varieties should be accepted, as that is part of the rich heritage of ME. However, perhaps each article should include a note of which variety it is in, and various standards for each variety could be adopted? I think this is a good idea, but I'm unsure how it will pan out. I would contribute, but I fear I do not adequately know how to write Middle English (as opposed to reading it). Jade Knight 00:30, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Let's just use the most well known variation of Middle English (I believe it's Chaucer's English?). It doesn't make sense to use multiple variations as articles shall be edited by many different persons.

Having dealt with the Old English wiki, it seems that having a standard dialect for articles would be a great idea. The Chancery Standard would probably be the most appropriate, but let's face it, that would be boring. AlmightyTim 21:04, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Excellent idea creating a Middle English language wikipedia. I am very interested in the language and also like the Anglo Saxon wikipedia. I would like to see this expanded further. --Ted-m 14:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Excellent idea. I'll certainly contribute to this. --Gray Porpoise 19:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Shan't Wikipaedia pages beeþ in a Wikipaedia namespace? --Gray Porpoise 14:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

No, thae donot have to arte there (excuseth me, ich haven not thy owlder version of ye "th"). Ich thinke, that owlso a Middle Engerlish Wikisourca wuld be more attractive, as it arteth lichter, to finde middle engerlish scriptaes than fionding ye correct wurds fore scribing newe. And, it is wirkily a probleme withe ye Middle Engerlish, becors, for exampul, my middle engerlish goes thru a mixty of gaidhlg and cumrae. And I musseth scribe that there, as thee certainerly can see, were more dialecterly spoken or scribben ME's than wirkily a standard ME. And thenne, it wuld be useful, owlso in the Angle-Saxn Wikipaedia, to placeer a transerlation into Moderne Engerlish beneeth ye Article.
Hoping that at leest a fiuw of my ideas wille be userd,
-- 09:48, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Hwie spriekt noch Old-Engelsh!? --

It's really easier said than done to create a standard. It would certainly be simple to fix those pages already created, but since spelling wasn't quite standardized even at that time (the Pearl-poet would use different spellings within one work), one could be writing in what is technically a mixture of different dialects and not know it, and it would be difficult to clean up. I don't like the Chancery Standard, not because of difficulty, because it is probably the easiest dialect used and was standardized, but because it's from a very late period within Middle English usage and, as mentioned earlier, is boring. I would not be against using it. I just think that an earlier version would probably be more truly Middle English. --Qmwne235 22:34, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I second JamesR1701E's statement. Also, I believe based on the example of the (Modern) English Wikipedia that consistency within an article (Commonwealth vs. American English) is much more important than consistency over the entire Wikipedia, and that dialects should be accepted as long as they are very similar to the set standard, whatever that is. --Qmwne235 22:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Wow, you know there's something wrong when you've replied to yourself twice. Anyway, I retract my previous comment. We probably shouldn't use early Middle English. A handful of editors have already set a precedent that I believe would be more convenient to follow, even though it's really a mix of words from various points in the evolution of the language.
P.S. Most of us speak Modern English, and since this isn't an article it isn't necessary to write in Middle English here. --Qmwne235 00:37, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, honestly, I'd like to see this move forward and become a wiki. The dialect, although important, probably not that important in the long run. I propose that instead of worrying about dialect, we let people do whatever dialect, and we create a dictionary that has the varied forms. Also if a particular part is brought into question, then the author presents a defense of it. I don't care what dialect of Middle English, so long as it's Middle English. (We could also have varied dialect pages, such as a Kentish or Midlands dialect variation of a page). Otherwise I say we got to get ahead with this. I want to help as much as I can.--Blackkdark 21:44, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Certaynly it is hard to playse every man, by-cause of dyversite and chaunge of langage. - 15:24, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

I think that because Middle English had many dialects and no standardized spelling, Middle English Wikipedia shouldn’t either. We should encourage this sort of diversity and different spellings can be used even in the same article Vikipad (talk) 20:09, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

what a wonderful discussionVikipad (talk) 18:07, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

@Vikipad:, please don’t write “what a wonderful discussion” in discussions that happened over a decade ago as it is spamming. If you have a comment that you feel is important, feel free to write it. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 11:34, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
1️⃣0️⃣0️⃣Your discussions are amazing. 💯-Your discussions are amazing (talk) 12:13, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
@Your discussions are amazing:, please don’t leave spam comments in discussions about Middle English Wikipedia. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 12:29, 22 May 2022 (UTC)


Heh, the paragraph under "[[|Test-wp/enm/Main Page#Purpose|Purpose]]" is actually modern English with all the ths replaced by þ. The rest of the page looks more legitimately Middle though. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 19:03, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

except how can you control that? I'm not sure. -- 06:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, we'd need to figure outhow to say words such as "appreciate" in Middle English. I'll work on finding synonyms that would work. --Qmwne235 22:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I did the best I could, feel free to rip it to shreds. I know my use of "ialloued" is questionable, but it has the connotation of appreciated, and I couldn't find an exact synonym. --Qmwne235 00:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

this discussion is wonderful Vikipad (talk) 20:11, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

@Vikipad: I for one agree. This entire wiki is wonderful! Alfred our king (talk) 18:01, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
congratulations to the editor Vikipad (talk) 21:52, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
@Vikipad, Alfred our king: please don’t spam this talk page. This isn’t a chat room. It’s only for things related to Middle English Wikipedia. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 21:56, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

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Will this be included as an article? if so, will it be modern knowledge written in Middle English? or the knowledge of the time? Kittybriton (Kittybriton's home page-- 03:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

    • Þe lore shalt beeþ of newe tyme. Looken at þe Latin Wikipaedia, which haþ a page on a wepne of þe grot! --Gray Porpoise 01:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
      • I agree. I included a little bit on the [[|wp/enm/Armour|armour]] article about modern armour, and we shouldn't have to act Middle English to speak it. --Qmwne235 00:46, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

amazingVikipad (talk) 23:08, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

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Special:Allpages — The preceding unsigned comment was added by (discussioncontribs) 23:40, 7 September 2007 (UTC).

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þat costeþ noght[edit]

"þat costeþ noght" - I don't know Middle English, but since I know German I guess this means "that costs nothing"? You know, Wikipedia is free as in freedom, not as in free beer... --MF-W {a, b} Visit IRC! 17:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I speak Proto-Mediaevel-Limburgish very good (to be honest; I wrote over 40 words! Yes, really 40 out of 9000) and it sounds and looks like Old/Middle English. Dat kostč nōgt is Plātter (Proto-Mediaevel-Limburgish) for which doesn't have a price/that costs nothing. So, yes you're right and it isn't a good translation. Maybe something like þat frē is is better. --Ooswesthoesbes 17:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I think the point is that it doesn't cost anything to use it. "Frē" is not a good translation; it more closely refers to freedom than cost. I support the current translation, as there is no other alternative I can think of. --Qmwne235 00:39, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't speak Middle English, but I can speak Old Limburgish. It seems to me that þat costeþ noght is an error. In Plātteren (Old Limburgish) maybe something like dēn frē an-wōrkedan wisdōmbōk. Translation: the encyclopedia everbybody can work on. Maybe this is an optional for Middle English too? --Ooswesthoesbes 06:09, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I see what you mean - freedom is the desired connotation. Using Ooswesthoesbes's idea, that would be "on whiche everychoun/alle can worke", roughly. Well, we'll need more input, and be the traffic on this test, that'll take a long time to get. --Qmwne235 00:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
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It seems that many other test projects are using interwiki links, whereas Middle English largely is not. Should we be using them? --Qmwne235 00:37, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

@Qmwne235: what do you mean by interwiki links? If you mean linking to articles in different wikis I think that we shouldn’t use them - instead we should use this opportunity to expand Middle English Wikipedia and create new pages by clicking on those red links. However, if you mean linking pages to pages about the same topic in other languages, I think this should be kept until after this wiki gets a subdomain and we will be able to do this using wikidata. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 18:41, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
BTW, I know you left this comment more than 13 years ago. This test wiki is much more active now as can be seen here. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 18:46, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020 Wikidata did not exist back then. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 14:54, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4: oh I see, so that’s why some articles in this test wiki listed articles in other languages in their source code. Btw, is my assumption that you can only link articles to articles about the same topic in other languages using wikidata once the project gets a subdomain correct? -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 15:10, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Well, interwiki links using the page's source code will still work, but they are deprecated by Wikidata in most cases. Their usage will mostly be limited to interwiki links of user pages and the like, where items for the page would be out of Wikidata's scope, although they may sometimes be used to link to sections of articles in other languages (better done by connecting a redirect to the Wikidata item, as the plain interwiki link would need to be added to every language version of an article on its own). 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 20:32, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4: I see. Thank you very much! I mean to ask is it right that right now I can’t go to [1] and add enm:Florida? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 11:21, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020 Yes, Wikidata sitelinks currently don't work for Incubator sub-projects, though there are plans to change this. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 11:33, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4: good to know. I think that if this plane is implemented it will help Middle English Wikipedia a lot! -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 11:50, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020 I apologize that I have no idea what I meant. I was 14 years old at the time. Qmwne235 04:30, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
@Qmwne235:, ok I see that’s understandable. In the discussion above we assumed that you meant linking a page to pages about the same topic in other languages. @1234qwer1234qwer4: linked to phab:T54971 though this was suggested in 2023 so I don’t think we should keep our hopes high on this. Are you interested in contributing to Middle English Wikipedia again or have you moved on? -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 11:52, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Also, in case you are interested, there’s an open request to change the WMF policy to start allowing new wikis in ancient languages. (Currently that’s not allowed so even if Middle English Wikipedia got 100,000 articles there would still be no chance of an You can view it here. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 12:10, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

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Main Page[edit]

Hello! Please move "Wp/enm" to a subpage "Wp/enm/Main_Page" with "Main Page" translated. And note that you need to request a wiki at m:RFL, though I think it will probably be rejected... SPQRobin 00:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

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where to learn middle english?[edit]

i want to contribuite but i cant find a middle english course or lessons, any help? -- 19:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I know it's difficult to find sites that provide material to learn Middle English, if you don't know ask me ;) I know Middle English because I learnt Old English it helps, I also searched on the internet but it's hard to find. --Stardsen (talk) 00:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Piers Ploughman[edit]

I am certainly no authority, but this Everyman paperback sitting on my desk beside the teamug is helpful:
The Vision of Piers Plowman: A Complete Edition of the B-Text, ed. A.V.C. Schmidt, Balliol, Oxford.
Dent, 1978, 1987; Everyman, 1978, 1987.
It has a 26-page glossary in fine print, e.g.

wortes, vegetables

and a single page of Latin and French terms.
The poem itself is 263 pages of Middle English, glossed down the right-hand side.

In my limited experience, similarly glossed editions of The Canterbury Tales are easier to find than this book, which is why I bought Piers for 25c.
Good luck, Varlaam (talk) 16:27, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

So probably the best online resource for this is the Middle English Dictionary hosted by the University of Michigan. It is searchable ME -> ModE and ModE -> ME; accepts searches with all the variant ME spellings; and each entry breaks the ME word down into all its senses and sub-senses, with extensive quotations from original texts which give the estimated time of writing. A very very useful website. Here's the link: Another site I particularly like is called EngleSaxe. It is focussed primarily on very early Middle English, but the options allow you to change texts between different spelling systems from typical Old English spellings to Chaucerian spellings. Each ME word is clickable to bring up its meaning(s) tenses for strong and irregular verbs, and attested spellings in various texts. There are pages on grammar too. Very handy - a hidden gem, and personally probably my favourite website ever. Here's the link: Ich hope ȝow likeþ mi red! -Laʒamon Æft-iboren (talk) 22:50, 7 June 2021 (BST)

@Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, thank you very much for sharing with us this valuable resource! -C64 is the best computer (talk) 17:38, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
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You know enm.wikipedia cannot be created, right?--Seonookim (talk) 04:22, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Contributors to this test will sooner or later get aware of it, probably. But we have an extra section for such wikis on I:Featured wikis. One can never know if policy won't change in the future, and the Incubator community has made no decision to disallow test-wikis in extinct languages. --MF-W {a, b} 05:01, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
If the policy can be changed for Wp/grc, then enm might be made to follow.
There has certainly been no shortage of aborted Wikipedia projects for living languages that had less life to them than the "dead" languages often do.
Varlaam (talk) 16:45, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
@Varlaam: I know the message was left nearly 9 years ago, but Middle English Wikipedia is much larger now. Are you interested in contributing? -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 14:42, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

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"Ðe list below"[edit]

The project tends to use thorn in "the", hence Þe. Is eth valid? Varlaam (talk) 15:23, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

And shouldn't that list be a "liste"? Varlaam (talk)
It doesn't have to be a "liste", although the s in list should probably be long, so "liſt" or "liſte". "Ðe" is valid, but it probably be "Þe" because the rest of the phrase isn't super-archaic like the spelling "Ðe" is. JustinCB (talk) 00:27, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
! What a page!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Vikipad (talk) 21:53, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

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project deletion request?[edit]

--Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 14:49, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

It appears that this project will stay for the time being. 22:17, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
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Not including "ſ" in page titles?[edit]

I have notices in some pages, such as Wp/enm/Scottish langage an "s" is being used in page titles instead of "ſ", is there any reasoning for this? — The preceding unsigned comment was added by GoodClover (discussioncontribs) 10:12, 27 January 2021 (UTC).

Looks like I forgot to put the "ſ". Feel free to fix any other ones you find. --CanadianToast (talk) 16:01, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
@GoodClover, if you are still active, can you explain when should I use ſ, and when s? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 21:57, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020 I've just followed the rules listed at w:Long s#Rules, they may not always be correct, but they're generally ok to follow. --GoodClover (talk) 09:23, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
@GoodClover, sorry for the late reply, but this article refers to the rules used in the 17th and 18th century. I didn’t find any info about the use of long s in Middle English (11th-15th century). -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 08:52, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

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Completely redesign the main page[edit]

It doesn’t make sense to put a list of all the articles in the main page especially since it’s possible to see the same list either using the category or by looking all the pages with the prefix wp/enm/. I think that we should list articles of things relevant to the Middle English, sort of like in Norfolk Wikipedia], they wrote a list of things relevant for the Norfolks. I think that their main page is very good and maybe we can even directly translate it to Middle English. Also we can take inspiration from Norman Wikipedia and Old English Wikipedia. I would like to hear your thoughts about this. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 16:18, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

By a direct translation I mean of everything except things about Norfolk and Pitcairn. Those should be replaced with things relevant for the Middle English. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 06:58, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
I think it's a good idea. --CanadianToast (talk) 00:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
@CanadianToast, I copied it and changed. Can you please check if the new main page is ok? Also feel free to add or remove subjects - This is Middle English Wikipedia nor Norfolk Wikipedia, the title pages don’t have to look the same. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 19:00, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020 It looks fine to me. --CanadianToast (talk) 22:30, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

logo on the front page[edit]

the "wikipaedia" logo is rendered like this as of feb 26, 2021:


the small caps text uses the HTML small tag. this poorly replicates the wikipedia logo's proportions, and fails to display in the mobile view. by removing the small tag, changing the text to say WikipaediA (yes, the capitals are important) and using appending style="font-size:30pt;font-family:Linux Libertine O;" will display it like this:


this way, it looks better, and renders on mobile. the only problem i can find is that it might look strange seeing WikipaediA for anyone using screen readers.

here's the full logo with the new code:

Þe Free Encyclopaedia

Jkrosado (talk) 18:22, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

@Jkrosado Thanks very much. --CanadianToast (talk) 21:51, 26 February 2021 (UTC)


Should wp/enm pages have citations and references? 16:35, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

I tried to put citations in Wp/enm/Texas, but the problem is that I don’t think that option currently exists. I simple English Wikipedia which I use as a reference point before editing in Wp/enm, if I edit using visual editing, I see the option “Cite”, but in Wp/enm I don’t. Does anybody know why is it so or should we contact the admins? -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 21:21, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
@Ebe123, do you know why can’t I cite sources and how to fix this? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 18:45, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

@Gifnk dlm 2020:, @Ebe123:, Wp/enn/MMXX uses citations. How do they do it? -C64 is the best computer (talk) 17:43, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

@C64 is the best computer:, sorry, I missed your question. You can use Template:Wp/enm/Cite web which was only created after this question was asked. I recommend to first create it in visual editing, then in source code editing add <ref></ref> around it. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 14:21, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Spelling of “will”[edit]

Would it be possible to change “will” on the main page to an older spelling such as “wvll” or “wole”? I would like your opinions on this. 16:45, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

I think it’s a very good idea, but I haven’t found any info in the internet to verify that the forms wvll and wole were used. I found in wiktionary the form wille, is this what you meant? Also, you can sign a message by typing ~~~~. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 09:02, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
I found several quotes of the usage of “wull” on the Middle English Dictionary by the University of Michigan. “We wull late in yow and youre”. 12:06, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

IDK Vikipad (talk) 21:16, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Milestone - more than 200 articles[edit]

I would like to announce that this test wiki now has more than 200 articles. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 18:40, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Btw, the main page says there are 202 pages, while the Category says there are 198 pages. Why do they say different things, and who to believe? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 19:30, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

@Gifnk dlm 2020:: Test. --OWTB (talk) 12:08, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Roman or Arabic numbers?[edit]

@1234qwer1234qwer4, The Hypnotizer, NASAPeepo, Nailuj29, Эарендил, CrazyPencilDawg, Jan Myšák, Ooswesthoesbes, CommonsDelinker, Laʒamon Æft-iboren, CanadianToast, PolarWafflez5327, Savh, SolsticeComesAndGoes, A FROGGE, Townie, WIKImaniac:, pinging all the users who contributed in March. Btw, now you can use the ping template in this test wiki without it showing an error by typing Wp/enm/Ping. Back to topic, do you think that we should use Roman numbers like people in Medieval times did or use more conviennent Arabic numbers? You can see a page with Arabic numbers [[|Wp/enm/Montgomery, Alabama|here]] and one with Roman numbers [[|Wp/enm/Austin, Texas|here]]. I personally think Roman numbers can be used from time to time for small numbers only but I would love to hear other opinions as well. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 14:11, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

I pinged much more users, but fro some reason only some of them show up. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 14:12, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020 I added support for up to 20 users in the Template:Wp/enm/Ping, though a module might be the better solution in the long term. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 14:22, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Thank you very much! -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 15:27, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Anyways, back to topic. Do you think we should use Roman numbers or Arabic numbers? -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 11:12, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
I've used the Arabic numerals for simplicity, but now that I think about it, I guess whatever was used by Middle English speakers back in the day should be used. However, as I was writing this, I did a quick Google search, and I just found out that this is easier said than done, because apparently they used Roman numerals, but there were some rare instances of Arabic numerals in the 15th century. I guess Roman numerals should be used since their Middle English use was more common, but I also have some bias towards Arabic numerals because of their simplicity. Nevertheless, I will use Roman numerals in this test wiki from now on, no matter how much pain it will cause me. NASAPeepo (talk) 17:16, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
A problem that I see is that for mathematical articles, we would still need to use Arabic numerals: Representing fractions, negative numbers, and even indices with Roman numerals is awkward. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 17:45, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
@NASAPeepo:, to begin, I would like to say that I admire your willingness to write in this test wiki in a way that is as similar as possible to what was common during medieval times. I did a bit research myself, and in w:Arabic numerals. I think that in mathematical articles we can maybe still tolerate Arabic numerals. It’s written that they became “widely known” in Britain in the 15th century, however there is even early evidence of use of those numerals. Middle English was spoken between the 12th to 15th century so using Roman numerals makes sense. @1234qwer1234qwer4:, it’s important to remember that Middle English had many dialects and many different spellings, and I think that this wiki should reflect that. That’s why I use different spellings in different articles- and sometimes even in the same article. Maybe this kind of diversity can apply also to numerals. However, it is possible to write fractions in Roman numbers - despite the fact that it is truly awkward as 1234qwer1234qwer4 noted, it’s still possible. Middle English Wikipedia should in my opinion represent how people in medieval spoke and wrote - not what is easier - that’s why I copy paste those thorns. I think we can use this discussion to create an official policy that new users in the future will be able to follow. We can also use the policy page as a tutorial to teach people Roman numerals.
TL;DR I think we should use Roman numerals but I recognize that there are valid reasons to use Arabic numerals so I would love to here other opinions as well. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 18:12, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
So in the article I started on the state of Michigan, would it still be appropiate to depict the state's population in the 2010 census as "9,883,640" as opposed to "MMMDCCXXIV"?NASAPeepo (talk) 19:45, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
@NASAPeepo:, that’s exactly the point of the discussion. I think that we have reached consensus that small number should be written using Roman Numerals. Also I see that you started replacing Arabic numerals with Roman ones in some articles, so thank you very much! About large numbers like populations, years, and ares - short answer is idk. Long answer is that I can understand both positions - the first one saying that in Middle English Wikipedia we should strive to write as similar as possible to how people wrote in medieval times and limit ourselves only to a Roman Numbers even for very large numbers and fractions. The second opinion is that we should use Arabic numbers for large numbers because they are much simpler. After this discussion, I’m leaning towards the first option but since Arabic numbers became accepted in Britain during the time when Middle English was still spoken maybe we can try to write such large numbers both by Arabic numerals and by Roman numerals? Just a suggestion. If not that we must create a page Wikipaedia:Use Roman numerals to teach people since the majority of people only know I, V, and X. Also it would be an extra hassle for new users who want to join Middle English Wikipedia. But it would make the text in this wiki more similar to how people in Medieval times would have written it. I would accept both options - we should decide which one is best by discussing and reaching consensus. Btw, I will greatly appreciate it if you ping me in your reply (type {{Wp/enm/Ping|Example}} -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 21:48, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: You are welcome! By the way, I have seen years represented by Roman numerals before, at least in modern English. Mostly in the end credits of TV shows and movies, so I have began using them for years. As for ordinals, I wrote out "seventeneþ century" on the Alaska page since I'm not entirely sure how Roman numeral ordinals work. Would it be something like "XVIIeþ century", "XVIIþ century", perhaps even simply "XVII century"? NASAPeepo (talk) 22:55, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
@NASAPeepo:, I researched this a bit, and I found this discussion. Their point makes sense - just like you write Napoleon III and say it Napoleon the third, it makes sense to write XVII century. About years, I think we should also use Roman numerals just create a page to teach new users that might not know them. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 09:11, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
Another important thing to discuss is articles about area codes (for phone numbers). Should they be written in Roman or Arabic numerals? -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 09:34, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
I left a comment at Old English Wikipedia inviting people to join this discussion. I find it interesting that they chose to use Arabic numerals despite the fact that they were introducing after Old English evolved into Middle English (they probably never thought about this and used the, out of instinct like we all did but I still find it interesting). -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 11:22, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
@NASAPeepo "MMMDCCXXIV" is "3724", not sure where you got that from. "9,883,640" would be something like "I̿X̿D̅C̅C̅C̅L̅X̅X̅X̅MMMDCXL" or "I̿X̿D̅C̅C̅C̅L̅X̅X̅X̅I̅I̅I̅DCXL". 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 12:45, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, Can you explain how you got I̿X̿D̅C̅C̅C̅L̅X̅X̅X̅I̅I̅I̅DCXL? According to this chart that I found, it should be M̄M̄M̄M̄M̄M̄M̄M̄M̄D̄C̄C̄C̄L̄X̄X̄X̄MMMDCXL. Correct me if I’m wrong. I suggest we create a template that automatically converts Arabic numerals to Roman ones as that will save a ton of human errror. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 13:12, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
Maybe. I'm not sure writing nine Ms in a row makes that much sense. Possibly also M̅X̿D̅C̅C̅C̅L̅X̅X̅X̅I̅I̅I̅DCXL. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 13:16, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, What do the 2 lines above the X mean? Also, if there’s a letter that means 10 million it’s probably better to write M̅ and then that letter. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 13:32, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
The two lines are just like a line above another. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 13:34, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
I see thank you very much! Is I̿X̿ the accepted way to write 9 million? Is it allowed to add the lines above a combination of letters or only above one letter? I think M̅X̿D̅C̅C̅C̅L̅X̅X̅X̅I̅I̅I̅DCXL (like you wrote above) makes more sense. Also, I think it would be better if we made a template that converts numbers to aRoman numerals that way if in the future we decide to use another convention, we will only need to change the template and not all the articles. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 13:40, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
This would probably require a module, and unfortunately, I don't know any Lua. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 13:42, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, such template exists in English Wikipedia, so we can request to import it (maybe ping an admin in this chat). I tested it in w:User:Gifnk dlm 2020/sandbox but the problem is that it doesn’t work for numbers larger than 4999999. I also don’t know lua, for some reason I thought it would be written in python which I know a bit of but since it’s lua it will be more challenging. Maybe we can ping the users who created w:Module:Roman and ask them if they can maybe increase the limit? From what I see, it knows to add lines above letters -14:07, 24 March 2021 (UTC) Template:Wp/enm/unsigned
@Mr. Stradivarius, Andy M. Wang, Redrose64, Jackmcbarn, Waggers, Xaosflux: pinging all the users that edited w:module:Roman (I hope this isn’t spam). Hi, here I’m Middle English Wikipedia we decided to use Roman numerals instead of Arabic numerals and in order to avoid human mistakes we started exploring the idea of using a template that will automatically convert numbers to Roman numerals. I decided to check if such template exists in English Wikipedia and I found w:Template:Roman to be very useful. However, we run into a problem - this template doesn’t support numbers larger than 4999999 so I was wandering: why such an arbitrary limitation? 4999999 isn’t a power of two and 4 byte integer variables can store numbers up to 4,294,967,295. Also, you are aware that adding lines above a number is the same that multiplying it by 1000, and btw two lines = multiplying by a million so I don’t see what’s the problem to do at least till 800 million. Thanks in advance, and I really hope this isn’t spam. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 16:02, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: I suspect it is because there was no agreement on how to represent 5 million or higher. w:en:Roman_numerals#Large_numbers suggests there is not a "standard". Xaosflux (talk) 16:07, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
@Xaosflux:, thank you very much for the reply! It’s written that both systems were in simultaneous use so here is my suggestion: add an additional parameter that will decide which syste to use. It will look like that: {{Roman|9883640|N/A|Vinculum}} or {{Roman|9883640|N/A|Apostrophus}}. However, if this is too much work I honestly think that Vinculum is better. However, my suggestion will solve the problem that you write above. Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 16:21, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
@Xaosflux:, I reviewed the code in w:Module:Roman and I honestly don’t see the problem. You can multiply by a million by adding two lines above. Doesn’t the function you use support adding two lines (by running this function twice). If not, isn’t there a possibility to create a function that adds two lines? If not, then isn’t it possible to just copy paste the Unicode characters to the code. I think it’s possible to ignore the comment directly above this because you use Vinculum for smaller numbers. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 19:47, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
If you want to propose a change to the module an the English Wikipedia, then open an edit request on its talk page. I'm not sure how that is going to help you on any other project, where you can simply update the project local module to whatever it is you need. As far as your core issue, how to write roman numbers on a wiki that is in the roman language -- well why not just use the natural characters, they are available in unicode. On other projects that don't use arabic they just use their native integer symbols, not wrap them in some template (e.g. pswiki has an article on w:ps:۳ not on "3", so wouldn't your article be on "III"? Xaosflux (talk) 21:25, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
@Xaosflux:, thank you very much for your reply! After thinking about it, I think it will be easier to create a page teaching people Roman Numbers than to use a template. The link you listed doesn’t have vinculums (the line above the letters) that was used to indicate multiplication by 1,000. @NASAPeepo, 1234qwer1234qwer4: what do you think about the creation of Wp/enm/Wikipaedia:Use Roman numerals that will also include a tutorial and possibly also a quiz? Also, how do you type the letters with the 2 lines above? -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 21:43, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
User:Gifnk dlm 2020 you can use unicode and combining characters, such as the unicode Ⅿ̅ which MAY appear correctly depending on your browser. Some of this may depend on how you want your source to be stored. Xaosflux (talk) 22:06, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
I suggest we not use the Unicode "Roman numeral" characters. As you said, it "MAY appear correctly", while using regular Latin letters will work for everyone. Or is there a problem with that I'm not seeing? 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 09:07, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: thank you very much! @1234qwer1234qwer4: yeah it’s a problem but if we want to write large numbers we kinda need to use Unicode characters (unless you know another way of typing letters with those lines above I’m open for suggestions). -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 09:22, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
A large factor in this is likely going to be how you want this to work for editors / how you want the source stored. Keep in mind your readers as well of course. Overline is going to be hard, it is likely a very bad idea to have every single number on your project wrapped in a template and there is not a single unicode character for roman numberals with overline (in my example above I used a combining unicode). CSS hacks to put overlines should certainly not be used for accessibility reasons. There are lots of ways to go about this, and the long term direction is going to depend on what your use cases need to be. Xaosflux (talk) 10:18, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
@Xaosflux:, thank you very much! The way I use to type characters that don’t appear on my iPads keyboard (like thorns - the Middle English alternative for th) is by copying and pasting from a page where someone else used it. That’s also how I typed lettes with overlines in this discussion (I also copied from w:Macron (diacritics) Maybe we will offer a tutorial page where users will be able to copy and paste characters from? Just a suggestion. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 11:26, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
Various editing bars are available your interface could use as well, (look for an "insert" menu in the editing window - and these can be customized - a project could get an insert window of these number symbols. Xaosflux (talk) 13:09, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
@Xaosflux:, thank you very much! I tried your advice in Wp/enm/Austin, Texas. Can you check did I do it properly? Also, the letters with the over line appear in a different font than the letters without. How to fix this? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 13:44, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
Well, you made some of them using math markup, and some are just basic latin letters. The math markup is rendering for me as a picture - so this all goes back to the question I was asking before, how do you want your information to actually be stored, and how do you want your readers to be able to access it? The semantic model can be very important if your goal is to make information accessible to the most number of people; if your priamry goal is visual presentation to a limited audience (for example humans reading your page visually with modern browsers) you can go a different direction. Xaosflux (talk) 13:58, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
@Xaosflux:, I see. Also for me it renders as an image. I would like this to be accessible to as many people as possible. Will typing C̄M̄L̄X̄X̄V̄MMM instead of that solve the problem? Btw, I replaced ĪĪĪ with MMM since there is a Roman numeral for 1,000 no point multiplying 1 by 1000. Also, I see that you don’t ping me in your replies. Here we created Template:Wp/enm/Ping. Will making Template:Wp/enm/ping as a redirect page solve the problem? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 14:30, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
@Xaosflux, NASAPeepo, 1234qwer1234qwer4:, I created a policy page asking people to use Roman numerals. It can be seen at Wp/enm/Wikipaedia:Use Roman numerals. Feel free to improve it. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 13:22, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

@1234qwer1234qwer4: this may sound random, but can you type a letter v with 2 lines above here? I want to write a page about Arizona, and it’s population is 7,278,717 so I will need a 5 with two lines above (5 million) in order to type this number. Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 18:40, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

@NASAPeepo, 1234qwer1234qwer4:, btw the message that I posted in Old English Wikipedia was archived because it’s more than 30 days old. I posted a message in Latin Wikipedia which is much more active. It’s just a message informing that we decided to use Roman numerals suggesting them to also think in that discussion and inviting them to help replace Arabic numerals with Roman ones in this wiki. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
Btw, on our main page we list the number of articles using Arabic numerals so I think we should still request to import the template that converts numbers to Roman numerals and wrap this number with this template in Template:Wp/enm/NUMBEROFARTICLES. By the day we get to 5 million articles I’m sure someone will increase the max number. I don’t think we will be able to change the numbers in the categories to Roman numerals though. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 20:39, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
@Xbspiro:, pinging an importer. Can you please import w:Template:Roman so that we can change the number of articles in the main page to Roman Numerals? -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 14:56, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: - unfortunately, I am not familiar with the modules which seem to be required to make the current version work. Would this version from 2013 be good enough for you?
Btw, Incubator has a page for handling these requests - if that version would not suffice, I will make a note there, so that more experienced importers could take a look at it. - Xbspiro (talk) 05:50, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
@Xbspiro:, thank you very much! I have looked a bit on the version you suggested, and it looks like it does nonsense with numbers that require a line above (a line above = multiplication by 1,000). Is this just because it’s loading newer revisions and in this test wiki will it be ok? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 09:05, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020:, I have copy-pasted the old version into w:Template:Template Sandbox. Try to invoke it with numbers you seek to display, and we will see if it works. In the meantime I have requested an undeletion which is connected to this version (although it might not be necessary). w:Template:Overline would be imported alongside this one, as it is a dependency. - Xbspiro (talk) 09:56, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
@Xbspiro:, thank you very much! I have tested w:Template:Overline in my sandbox and it seems to be working fine. I didn’t quiet understand how the template sandbox works though. How do I invoke it with different numbers? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 10:27, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020:, check out w:Wikipedia:Sandbox (diff). Change the numbers to your liking and hit preview or save. - Xbspiro (talk) 10:37, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Well, you did just that in your sandbox. - Xbspiro (talk) 10:40, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
@Xbspiro:, thank you very much! This template works! I think it will work perfectly with the current small number of articles but the problem is when we get to over 1,000 articles. [[|Wp/grc|Ancient Greek Wikipedia]] has over 1,000 articles and if we check template:Wp/grc/NUMBEROFARTICLES, we will see that it shows the number with a comma, and this template doesn’t support numbers with commas. Is there any way around this? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 10:56, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
You mean like V̿? Sorry for the very delayed response; I was inactive on Incubator. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 17:34, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, yes exactly. Thank you very much! -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 17:37, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

>> @Gifnk dlm 2020:, based on w:Help:Magic words#Metadata, one can request a number without commas by using the R switch: [[Special:Prefixindex/Wp/grc|{{PAGESINCATEGORY:Wp/grc|R}}]] which results in 19. - Xbspiro (talk) 11:02, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

@Xbspiro:, thank you very much! I tested this in my sandbox and it works perfectly well with w:Template:Roman. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 11:21, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020:, done, but keep in mind that it is not the module-based version. Good luck! - Xbspiro (talk) 12:22, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
@Xbspiro:, Thank you very much! I tried to use it in template:Wp/enm/NUMBEROFARTICLES where it seems to work propelled but when I check in Wp/enm/Mayne Page, it still shows up as Arabic numerals. I tried to edit the page but it still doesn’t work. Thanks in a advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 12:28, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020:, Template:Wp/enm/Numberofarticles is used on the MP, not Template:Wp/enm/NUMBEROFARTICLES. Hopefully it will work from now on. (Please don't thank again. :) ) - Xbspiro (talk) 12:41, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Middle English Translator[edit]

Hi @Bywok:, I saw your translator, and I think that it will be very beneficial for Middle English Wikipedia. Also, I saw that it converts th to lowcase thorns properly but Th stays Th. I have never created a lingojam so maybe what I’m telling won’t be of much use but is there an option to convert Th to capital thorns? Also I think that it’s a shame that you advertised it just in your user page which I found just after browsing the list of users who speak Middle English. If I were you I would open a discussion here as well. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 17:35, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Btw, I prefer to discuss stuff related to Middle English Wikipedia here so that other users will be able to also join the discussion and express their opinions about this. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 17:46, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Hey @Gifnk dlm 2020:, thank you for mentioning me about this! The reason that "Th" stays "Th" is because for whatever reason Lingojam doesn't seem to have case sensitivity. The LingoJam is nowhere near finished by any means and more things will be added to it. As for the advertising, I'll remove it so that others can discuss it here. Thanks for reaching out to me about this! Also there is a suggestion box below the translator so you can also put your suggestions there as well. Thank you! Bywok (talk) 01:40, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
Also I only have basic knowledge of Middle English and am currently still trying to learn it. Sorry, I didn't know you could change it until I changed the number on my page. It's been updated. That was also why I was making the translator, as a way to teach myself the language rules of Middle English. Bywok (talk) 01:44, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
@Bywok:, thank you very much for replying! I also have a basic knowledge of Middle English and I joined this wiki as a way to improve it. I recommend using this online Middle English dictionary because it also has quotations so you can check if you are using the word correctly. If you are really serious about it, you can borrow a book in the archive library about Middle English. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 12:48, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
Another source I recommend you use is Wikitionary. You can look in the etymology section of the word that you are checking and see what this word was in Middle English. For example the word book in Middle English was booke, book, and bok (there was a wide variety of dialects). In this case I usually prefer to avoid using the one that is exactly what is used in Modern English in order to make Middle English Wikipedia more unique. But if lingojam supports randomness I think this would be the best option. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 14:25, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
Please no. No offence, but this is not a very good idea. It just results in modern English spelt funny, which isn't exactly the same as middle English, and is a bad thing to base the project on in my opinion. The good pages (like hare) are clearly not composed in modern English, there's some weird sentence constructions going on that you have to think about. The bad pages are just obviously modern English text rendered into a medieval spelling.2407:7000:89D7:9B81:B0BA:D74:F534:5439
Just to make sure I understand your message so that we can discuss it’s properly. Do you mean not to use a Middle English translator because it will not translate to Middle English, only to Modern English spelled funny? Or do you mean not to use the Middle English dictionary that I proposed? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 15:24, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

BTW, @Bywok:, some time ago @Laʒamon Æft-iboren: linked to a really good website about Early Middle English Grammar (linked here. I’m just curious to know if this can be implemented in your translator. One notable thing is that instead of adding the word “to” in order to mark infinitive verbs, you add -en. So to sing should be singen. The only challenge I see with this is that if you write about someone going to say London you don’t want to write going Londonen. I’m wondering, is there a way in lingojam to tell which word is a verb and which isn’t? If no than it’s going to be more challenging.... -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 19:02, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

New request in meta[edit]

@Laʒamon Æft-iboren, The Hypnotizer, Bywok, 1234qwer1234qwer4, CanadianToast, PolarWafflez, LittleWhole, Whaales, DTL1234: Pinging recent and/or active contributors. There’s a new request to open a new Middle English Wikipedia as Please feel free to add more arguments to why Middle English Wikipedia should be created and also any contributions to this wiki (especially now) are welcome and will be appropriated. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 09:05, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the ping. Will do. LittleWhole (talk) 09:33, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for pinging me. CanadianToast (talk) 23:20, 5 May 2021 (UTC)


Hi @MF-Warburg:, how to create a sandbox for Middle English Wikipedia in order that users will be able to do test, edits play around with templates, etc? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 16:03, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

In addition, Wp/enm should be removed from the category for open but rejected wikis. I would do it myself but I’m not sure to which category it should be added to. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 09:00, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
A sandbox is just a normal page that states it can be edited for testing purposes. Users can use I:Sandbox or you can create an own one. --MF-W {a, b} 01:16, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
@MF-Warburg: thank you very much! I have checked out Incubator:Sandbox, and I I create Wp/enm/Wikipaedia:Sandbox and type there:
{{/Please do not edit this line}}
Will it work properly or will it give an error as an unprefixed template? -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 08:30, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Never mind I managed. Thank you very much! But why is the request for deleting this wiki still open if there’s a request in meta? Also, shouldn’t Wp/enm be removed from the category for open but rejects wikis? -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 12:07, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Fourth request rejected ........ too soon[edit]

@LittleWhole, DTL1234, MF-Warburg, 1234qwer1234qwer4, Atavoidturk, Bywok, CanadianToast, Jelican9, Laʒamon Æft-iboren, Liuxinyu970226, RealGatba, Segwaylegway: pinging all the users who contributed to this with in May. The fourth request for Middle English Wikipedia has recently been rejected - only two weeks after it was created. However, when the discussion was open I tried to ask if it’s possible by any chance that the Wikimedia Foundation will contact Middle English experts that will review our work, correct us if we have many mistakes, and maybe some of them will even stay and become frequent editors. @Janwo: explained that it’s not the responsibility of Language Committee but rather of the community making the request so I would love to hear your opinions about this. Janwo also told that if we manage to get an expert to become an active member, this might make things look a little bit brighter. Also, I think that we should discuss our next steps after the fourth request was rejected - do we open a fifth one, do we contact experts and only open a new request when there’s much more content and the content is actually reviewed by experts, do we both contact experts and open a fifth request, or do we just continue expanding the wiki without any plans of posting a request in the foreseeable future? I would love to hear your opinions. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 21:32, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

You surely misunderstood Janwo's comments. He was referring to the custom of Langcom verifying the content of test-wikipedias with an independent linguist aka "expert" before approving them, to make sure it's really the language. A language does not become more acceptable if many "experts" are contributing to it. --MF-W {a, b} 21:56, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Will this rejection reason also apply to Ancient Greek Wikipedia request IV? That seems somewhat under same situation, that rejected for 3 times, SIL's Language Type of that is Historical. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:34, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020 So as explained by the rejection reason, new Wikipedias are not allowed just if you're using ancient and/or historical languages, that's why I would say move to Incubator Plus would be better than still stucking here, since by this way you will quickly have a wiki in this language, although its domain won't be "". Questions like "do we need 5th request", "do we contact experts"... would be not important since it's defined by babelstone that those languages aren't suitable for Wikimedia, at least for having Wikimedia wiki websites. It's not suitable to retain fathers here, so we do have other places to retain fathers. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 14:10, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
@Liuxinyu970226: from my understanding incubator plus works with the same prefix system as incubator so this won’t be different, however a lot will be lost. For one, there will be no way to get a subdomain even if the policy changes. From my understanding, new Wikipedias in ancient languages are not allowed because they think that there are not enough people interested in this - and Middle English Wikipedia proves that there are. Also from my understanding artificial languages are allowed if there are enough people interested and editing. There’s no any reason to assume that someone will search for information in Lojban however Lojban is still eligible for wikis. Another thing that will be lost is the ability to use interwiki links. I heard there was a proposal to add the ability to add interwiki links to test wikis using wikidata. This obviously won’t extend to wikis in incubator plus. I suggest to continue expanding this test wiki and then use it as evidence that a test wiki in an ancient language can flourish and submit a request to change the policy. (BTW, @MF-Warburg:, if you actually read the discussion before rejecting the request, you would see that Janwo clearly said “ If, however, you can convince said experts to become active members of the project's community, thins might look a bit brighter.”) -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 16:54, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020 "For one, there will be no way to get a subdomain even if the policy changes." This is of course impossible, because as I said again and again, your language is not suitable for having Wikipedia, as it's *not suitable*, it has lost, is losing and will always lose potential umbrellas of such a "way"; answers of questions like your "and Middle English Wikipedia proves that there are" would be same IMHO; questions about artifical languages are different than ancient/historical/extinct languages since there could be possible by one-per-one judging, and there are having activities on Lojban as per their RecentChanges.
About Interwiki links, if you really think this is so important, you may request it at m:Talk:Interwiki map, and you even can encourage Miraheze's admins to consider installing mw:Extension:Wikibase Client, "use it as evidence that a test wiki in an ancient language can flourish and submit a request to change the policy." you can continue here, but it won't be such an "evidence" since the rule about barring ancient/historical/extinct languages for having Wikipedias are engraved on every Wikimedians' hearts, wasting times to "wait for experts and submit next Xth requests" are having no benefits even for you. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:53, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
@Liuxinyu970226: if you look in the recent changes of Middle English Wikipedia, you will see that it’s much more active than Lojban Wikipedia. Lojban Wikipedia had only 5 “edits” in the last 7 days and none of them were for actual content pages. Two of them were user renames so they don’t count as edits at all, one of them is an account creation, one of them is a MediaWiki Message Deliibery, and the only one that can be considered as an expansion is editing a template (which btw is important but not enough to say that it’s an active wiki). If you enter any request for a new project, you will clearly see the text “The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.” Based on this Middle English Wikipedia is an active wiki and I would like to submit a request to change this policy so that it will allow also ancient languages if there’s an interested community. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 11:30, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020 All questions based on the activity levels, as per [2], are answered by MF-W: "There have been some discussions on the proposal - also some mails were sent to this list, but I discarded them as a list admin because they were just copies of people's comments from the Meta page without it being clear who was sending these mails - but nothing convincing was brought forth, it was rather derailed by pointing out "oh but there are so many contributors!!!". I closed the proposal accordingly." This clearly-than-god defined that activity isn't, i-s-n-(apostrophe)-t, a reason that a language proposal would be eligible.

As for a request for comment, these were tried by so many peoples like you, but all are failed: m:Meta_talk:Language_proposal_policy/Archives/2007#Latin_Wikipedia, m:Meta_talk:Language_proposal_policy/Archives/2008#Latin_Wikinews, m:Meta_talk:Language_proposal_policy/Archives/2009#Unfair_policy, m:Meta_talk:Language_proposal_policy/Archives/2010#Dead_languages_bundled_with_the_modern_equivalent?, m:Meta_talk:Language_proposal_policy/Archives/2012#Literary_languages, m:Talk:Language_proposal_policy#Austrian_German, m:Talk:Language_proposal_policy#Start_allowing_ancient_languages, m:Talk:Language_committee/2007#From_Talk:Requests_for_new_languages, m:Talk:Language_committee/2007#Technical_changes, m:Talk:Language_committee/2007#Regular_oversights, m:Talk:Language_committee/2007#Wikipedia_Korean_Hanja, m:Talk:Language_committee/2007#Ottoman_turkish (though, most of them are about [[|Wp/grc|Ancient Greek]] instead)

So in short: Get ready to say Good Bye from Wikimedia Incubator, here you won't translate your hopes to a domain. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 06:57, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

@1234qwer1234qwer4: because you are a very experienced editor and a contributor to Middle English Wikipedia I would love to know your thoughts about inviting experts that study Middle English to review this wiki, give feedback and maybe even become active contributors. Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 18:05, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4: you may have missed the ping. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 22:03, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
Sorry. I mean, it will certainly help this wiki if experts actively contribute to it. The question is probably rather how to invite them. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 10:40, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4: yeah that’s exactly the problem. I tried to contact experts back in January (see User talk:CanadianToast#About mistakes in Middle English) but they still haven’t returned. I think it would be more effective to send to many Middle English experts that way it increases that chances that at least a few of them will become active contributors. BTW, I found a list of Middle English Experts. We can try to contact them but we will have to formulate a good message first. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 12:30, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
Correction: I contacted in Early February. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 12:31, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4: BTW, I sent an email to all 62 (hope I haven’t missed anybody) people in the list above informing them about the existence of Middle English Wikipedia and inviting them to contribute. Let’s hope it doesn’t end up in their spam box. I will however continue searching for ways to contact experts at least until a few of them start contributing. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 11:25, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4: Update: one of the people whom I emailed replied and told just that he would like to thank us that his students love Middle English Wikipedia and that it helped boost their enthusiasm. However, the emails didn’t seem to attract any new contributors. Unfortunately I couldn’t find any mailing lists other than the one above. Do you have ideas on any other ways we could contact experts? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 17:41, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Request for comment at Meta[edit]

@LittleWhole, DTL1234, 1234qwer1234qwer4, Atavoidturk, Laʒamon Æft-iboren, OTOD tag, Bywok, CanadianToast, Jelican9, RealGatba, Segwaylegway, WP Ludicer: pinging all users who contributed to Middle English Wikipedia in the month of May, I posted a request for comment at meta requesting that they start allowing wikis in ancient languages making it clear that I don’t expect Middle English Wikipedia to get a subdomain right away - only that it will have the opportunity to do so once it has a substantial amount of content. Please feel free to add more arguments if you think that I missed anything or just express your support in the discussion. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 08:36, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

@PastelKos, Marco Choi 04, Θεπ, MysteriousAuthor, Minorax, WorkingCube, Haoreima, KevinMuskelprotz, WOSlinker, BILL1, Glorious 93, Aureliiuss, IJzeren Jan: pinging all users who contributed to Ancient Greek Wikipedia in the months of April and May. This isn’t about Middle English Wikipedia - it’s about the future of all wikis in Ancient languages. BTW, I forgot to leave a link😅. Here it is: Requests for comment/Start allowing ancient languages -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 09:05, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
Hi, which ancient languages allowed now? -- 10:07, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
Currently no ancient languages are allowed. If you enter the fourth request you will see that “New Wikipedias in ancient or historical languages are not allowed by the Language Proposal Policy”. I posted this request for comment in order to try an change this policy. If you support this initiative, please add a comment in the discussion section explaining why you support it with a few arguments. I will really appreciate it if you do. Also it’s highly desirable that you create an account as it will make communicating a whole lot easier. It’s easier to remember a user name than an I.P. address and it’s possible to ping users using {{Wp/enm/Ping|User}} or {{ping}} outside of this test wiki. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 10:40, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
BTW, I left a comment about this request in Latin Wikipedia and in Classical Chinese Wikipedia. I might also inform about this in Old English Wikipedia and in Old Church Slavonic Wikipedia. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 12:03, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Added an option to create pages through the main page[edit]

@LittleWhole, DTL1234, Nevergonnagiveyou, MF-Warburg, Liuxinyu970226, 1234qwer1234qwer4, Laʒamon Æft-iboren, Atavoidturk, OTOD tag, Bywok, Jelican9, CanadianToast, RealGatba, Segwaylegway, WP Ludicer, Zarzagoa, Future Perfect at Sunrise: pinging all users who contributed during the months of May and June. Inspired by Wp/grc/Κυρία Δέλτος, I added the option to create new pages through the main page. Feel free to use it. Just please don’t remove the prefix Wp/enm. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 13:06, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Can You Add middle english wikitionary?[edit]

Its possible request it! — The preceding unsigned comment was added by (discussioncontribs) 09:26, 18 July 2021 (UTC).

@ from my understanding it would be simply rejected because the current policies don’t allow new wikis in ancient languages. I have submitted a request to change this policy. It can be found here. You might want to check it out. Also, you can sign messages by typing ~~~~ at the end of your message. It’s highly desirable that you create an account as it will make collaboration a lot easier. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 13:58, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
BTW, @MF-Warburg: can you please create Template:Wp/enm/Unsigned? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 13:59, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Can you not? It should not be blocked. --MF-W {a, b} 14:05, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
@MF-Warburg: never mind. I did this. It’s much easier than I initially thought it would be. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 16:55, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Improved Middle English alphabet[edit]

AÁBCDEÉFGHIÍJKLMNOÓPQRSTUÚVWXYÝZÞÆÐ (uppercase) aábcdeéfghiíjklmnoópqrstuúvwxyýzþæð (lowercase) — The preceding unsigned comment was added by (discussioncontribs) 10:06, 25 July 2021 (UTC).

@Laʒamon Æft-iboren: thoughts? -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 12:49, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: It's O.K. On the rare occasions Middle English scribes did mark vowel length with diacritics, it was with the acute accent used here, not the macron, so I've no objections to that. I would add yogh (Ȝȝ) and wynn (Ƿƿ), though, and also long s (ſ). -Laʒamon Æft-iboren (talk) 13:17, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
@Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, ok I understand. Thank you very much! Do you think it should be corrected in pages like Wp/enm/Rēad-only memory, Wp/enm/Gāmeboy, and Wp/enm/Gāmeboy color (can be done using Special:MovePage. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 13:26, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Haha I forgot ogoneks (Ąą, [ag or og] like wąn (want) Ęę [eg] like Winnipę (Winnipeg) lol), Śś and Ćć [s’] like Ueterśen, [c’] like synć (since) — The preceding unsigned comment was added by (discussioncontribs) 15:19, 11 October 2021.


will Japan win the Euro? Vikipad (talk) 21:45, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

@Vikipad: lol. But please don’t spam this page. Use it in the future only for things related to Middle English Wikipedia. Thanks, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 21:47, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

OK, I got you Vikipad (talk) 21:05, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Middle English Wikipedia Welcoming bot[edit]

When I joined the incubator, I got a message from a welcoming bot in my talk page. I want to know if this can be done with Middle English Wikipedia to new editors. That will get links to additional resources straight in their talk page. Vikipad (talk) 22:01, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

@Vikipad: I think this is a very good idea! -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 22:05, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4, MF-Warburg: do you think that it’s doable? -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 22:06, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
It would definitely be harder than a generic welcoming bot, since it would need to determine which wiki was edited as well. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 12:12, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4: what do you mean? I imagine a bot that would monitor changes in Middle English Wikipedia which is possible as is evident by All pages in test wiki, and if this is the first edit by this user in this test wiki (check this page) then it will send a message. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 13:26, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

what a wonderful discussion! Vikipad (talk) 21:14, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I made the Middle English version of an viral Wikipedia article[edit]

Thats the article: Cock and ball torture — The preceding unsigned comment was added by (discussioncontribs) 15:52, 3 August 2021.

@, thanks for your contributions! It’s highly desirable that you create an account and edit using it as it makes collaboration a lot easier. However, regardless of weather you create an account or not, please remember to sign your comments by typing ~~~~ at the end of your message. Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 17:05, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Very big update[edit]

Held an very big update in main page Instead of S, retyped to long S -— The preceding unsigned comment was added by (discussioncontribs) 08:55, 12 August 2021.

@Laʒamon Æft-iboren: thank you very much! -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 11:28, 12 August 2021 (UTC)


my friends talk about it. Do u know what is it? Vikipad (talk) 21:05, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

@Vikipad: please don’t spam the talk page. It’s an exam in Israel You can read about it in Hebrew Wikipedia or in English Wikipedia. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 21:20, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

@Vikipad:, how is this related to Middle English Wikipedia? -C64 is the best computer (talk) 17:36, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

A question about notability[edit]

@1234qwer1234qwer4, CanadianToast, JustinCB, Qmwne235, Gray Porpoise, Laʒamon Æft-iboren, Cbrown1023, Katxis:, @Varlaam, LittleWhole, S. Roelants, PolarWafflez, Sgman1991, The Hypnotizer, DTL1234, Warofdreams,, Xbspiro:, @Artoria2e5, Kimberley-nia Bot, X Parasite~incubatorwiki, Whaales, AurelianusAmbrose, NASAPeepo, Zarzagoa:, @Nevergonnagiveyou, GoodClover, DiuPater, Ursulageorges, Malhonen, ChimNung, CommonsDelinker, OTOD tag, Ooswesthoesbes, Firsfron:, @Xaosflux, Krencko, Heremaecg, MerlIwBo, Chris.Taub.M.D., Underfell Flowey, Guillermo2149, Biglittlehugesmall65, Romaine, Steinbach:, @Sub to pewdipi, Doogdoggo1234, Schwei2, ABAlphaBeta, Timichal, Potvisgg, Anton Kazmyarchuk, Aranya, Mike Dillon, Jkrosado:, @TungstenPoet1, Bouymanbob, Catfish Enthusiast, Murchison-Eye, CaptainGastronomicon, Wiki13, Hasley, Venca24, Child of Garrett, Footyspeed:, @Wikitiki89, SolsticeComesAndGoes, InternetArchiveBot, JonsterMonster, James Johnson, JamesR1701E, Эарендил, Jared, Frogge Editor, Ryulong:, @Atavoidturk, WZibell, AzaToth, Nailuj29, StevenJ81, Ferien, Stardsen, Onyxastra, Counselbytheelves:, @Markus included, Sfenj, A FROGGE, Newbiepedian, Mssetiadi, Mr. Stradivarius, Xnet1234, ProletariatetsBefrielseOrkester, AquaticCitrus2035, Zacwill:, @Redux, Savh, Snood1205, Szczecinolog, Therealpirateblue, This, that and the other, TinaSharp, UU, WikiBayer, XXBlackburnXx:, @Yejianfei, Sksksjsm, Nieuwsgierige Gebruiker, FROGGEBOOPE, Heavy Metal PST5, Jan Myšák, Dm5228272, Dpv, DutchTina:, @Bywok, Kaganer, Hellokitty~incubatorwiki, Edmundwoods, KingCrungis, Ebe123, Blackkdark, Chabi, Crochet.david, Eitanish:, @Leefeni de Karik, CrazyPencilDawg, Amdiux, WP Ludicer, Suzukaze-c, WOSlinker, WIKImaniac, Tamara Ustinova, Dryke, Anatol Rath:, @Tegel, Andrew Dalby, Townie, Dyhgs, The Mighty Bleu, EdShnee, Dispenser, Markvondeegel, Alshfik, Danny B.:, @Cranberry1337, Корінь, Þe beeſte, Zippee100, A11ce, Yggdrasil Hugger, Yaroslav Zolotaryov, Yaroslav Zolotaryov, Daarznieks, DannyS712:, @AlmightyTim, XXdeema epicgamerXx, David Kernow, X4v13r3, Akanemoto, Worm consumption, Davidgothberg, WikiLeon, Erik Baas, DigitalCross:, @Wheatbreadsauce, Dickman1, Sosag332, Espreon, Breizhcatalonia1993, Primefac, Jawshewah, PolarWafflez5327, Jelican9, Phil Boswell:, @Joseph Stocke, OlegMarchuk, NotOnDuty, Node ue, Kesac, Rarted Brian, NeilN, Mxn, Lemuel Gulliver, Biólogo conservacionista:, @Luna Santin, Monedula, BSMIsEditing, MLisDreaming, BAKFLASH, Matiia, Huhu, Raymond, Steinsplitter, ScienceFan66:, @Filemon, Spangineer, Martin Rizzo, Sophia maria, Frogge facts, Frogge is beaste, Andrijko Z., GallantArc302, Seonookim, Segwaylegway:, @GeorgeMoney, RealGatba, CanadianToasts, Salix alba, SUL, SPQRobot, SPQRobin, CKarlsen, Greydman24, Rich Farmbrough:, @Rfc1394, Redrose64, タチコマ robot:, pinging users who contributed to Middle English Wikipedia. Currently Middle English Wikipedia doesn’t have set in stone notability rules like English Wikipedia has. The de facto rule of thumb seems to be that if it’s good enough for English Wikipedia, it’s also good enough for ME Wikipedia which makes sense. However, I suggest to also have a policy for topics that don’t have articles in E Wikipedia. I would love to hear your thoughts about this and I hope the wall of text pings hasnt caused you not to read the message. Some opposers in the RfC told that Esperanto Wikipedia has “exclusive content” and that’s what makes it useful so we have an opportunity to improve ME Wikipedia. Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 17:36, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Dump of incubator[edit]

@Yair rand:, pinging an incubator admin. Since it’s obvious that the impending deletion of Middle English Wikipedia is inventible, and since the latest dump of incubator doesn’t contain the latest changes in Middle English Wikipedia, could you please create a dump of incubator containing the revisions? I wouldn’t mind it if it includes the entire incubator and I’m sure other test wikis in ancient languages are also in danger so it would be a bonus to archive them as well. Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 21:52, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

@Gifnk dlm 2020: Admins aren't able to initiate dumps, sorry. However, if you just want to download the contents of the Middle English Wikipedia, you might be able to do that with Special:Export using Category:Wp/enm, I think? Alternatively, you could wait until the next dump comes (probably in a week or two); I don't expect deletions to happen between now and then. --Yair rand (talk) 23:49, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
@Yair rand:, thank you very much for your reply! I think I will download the latest dump, and hope ME WP doesn’t get deleted until after the next dump. But if it doesn’t then not much is lost :-) -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 07:32, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
BTW, what needs to be done in order to view the wiki? I understand I need to set up a home server, but I assume I also need to install the Wikimedia software. Is there a tutorial? -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 09:49, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
@Abuse filter, Comp1089, Danny B., Ebe123, Hydriz, Kimberley-nia Bot, MF-Warburg, Minorax, Ninjastrikers, Ooswesthoesbes, Romaine, Sotiale, Yair rand:, do you know how this can be done? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 11:05, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: You can install MediaWiki (the software that Wikimedia uses) by following the instructions at I'm curious why you think this project is being deleted, by the way. I see no indication that suggests that. Am I missing something? TheDragonFire300 (talk) 11:09, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
There is a request to delete it, but it looks like the majority has voted to keep it here. --OWTB (talk) 11:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
@Ooswesthoesbes: I did see that one, which makes the OP's certainty that "it’s obvious that the impending deletion of Middle English Wikipedia is inventible" even more confusing. Every other wind is blowing the other way, as I see it. TheDragonFire300 (talk) 11:19, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
@TheDragonFire300:, yeah there is. But check out the request for comment to start allowing ancient languages. While searching for a compromise, Future Perfect at Sunrise demanded the inclusion of policies that are basically a de facto ban on Middle English. There must be an “accepted standard spelling” and users must not be expected to craft new words for concepts that didn’t exist back then. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 11:58, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: That RFC would only cover new wikis, not any in Incubator. Again, I fail to see how this justifies your insistence that this project is endangered. TheDragonFire300 (talk) 12:03, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
@TheDragonFire300:, ones in the incubator don’t count as projects that “exist” - they only do when they get a subdomain. Old English Wikipedia won’t be effected since it already has one however Middle English Wikipedia will have to pass those standards before it can get one. If you read the discussion (t vast majority of it was archived) you would see that this suggestion was most likely out of hatred of this test wiki as he wrote after it that Middle English fails flat in all three. And then later he wrote that those proposals are the “less evil” since “out of question” languages like Middle English still are not allowed. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 12:09, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
@TheDragonFire300:, I think I will try out the apps listed in that was linked in reddit (idk if by you or not). I know for a fact that Kiwix doesn’t read those xml files (I tried) but it’s still useful for the offline copy of ME WP that was produced though it only includes content pages no reviews. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 13:01, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
@Sbmeirow, The Anome, Brion VIBBER, Kelson, Mindmatrix, Tero~enwiki, Beland, Emijrp, Chmarkine, Alfio, Svick, MrJones,, RaptorHunter, Mohsen haqiqat 1955, Graham87, John of Reading,,, Patrick:, pinging users who have contributed to the page linked above (many users contributed so only the ones who did the largest amount of edits). Do you know of any app that can be used to view those dumps or is creating a home server the only option? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 14:24, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: I don't have Reddit, but I certainly did see your post on r/datahoarder, which is how I came here. Anyway, it's not a bad idea to back up anything, so if you need help, I would be happy to help you get your pages online. The talk page link is where to go to contact me. TheDragonFire300 (talk) 20:20, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: To use the XML files created by Special:Export, you need to visit Special:Import on another MediaWiki wiki, while this one is still online. The XML files do not contain any copy of any page on this wiki; it is downloaded by the MediaWiki instance. If you'd like, I can spin up a new instance of MW on my server and import them for you, at least. TheDragonFire300 (talk) 03:02, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
@TheDragonFire300:, thank you very much! That would be much appreciated! -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 09:06, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Currently I observe no pressure to take care of things immediately, and I'm flat out with study, but since it's September break here in Australia soon, I'll take care of it over the next fortnight. TheDragonFire300 (talk) 09:13, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
@TheDragonFire300:, OK, I think that’s a reasonable amount of time. The compromise proposal in the RfC is still being discussed and the discussion is much deeper than I thought it would be. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 09:18, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

@TheDragonFire300:, just a question. In order for the download created by Special:Export to contain all Middle English Wikipedia, should I add all redirects, template, talk pages, etc. to the main category? Does it also do subcategories? For example, there’s a category for templates so is it ok that the templates themselves aren’t part of the main category but only of a subcategory? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 18:57, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

@Gifnk dlm 2020: To answer that question: it would depend on the categorisation system. It's unlikely you'll be able to modify the cats themselves, so I'd add the categories that contain everything you'd like to add. I must admit I'm not familiar with mewikipedia's system, though. Nor have I tested subcategorises in Special:Export, so your guess is as good as mine. Only one way to find out, I guess! TheDragonFire300 (talk) 21:44, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
@TheDragonFire300:, ok I see. I have no problem to add all those pages to the main category. :-) I would not like to have someone else put that effort and then discover that it should be done all over again. @1234qwer1234qwer4:, do you think that adding all the non content pages to the main category is necessary for them to be included in Special:Export? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 21:53, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: You shouldn't need to add any pages to any category. Rather, what I'd do is add all those relevant subcategories to the Special:Export form (it can take more than one category, IIRC). TheDragonFire300 (talk) 22:55, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
@TheDragonFire300: ok, thank you very much! I will still need to create the categories as the only one that currently exists for non content pages is the one for templates. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 07:23, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
@TheDragonFire300:, I have started creating Category:Wp/enm/Talke pāǧes. Do you think it would be reasonable if I turned Wp/enm/Wikipaedia:Sandbox to a list of categories? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 09:44, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
BTW, does any body know if it’s possible to add modules to their own category as well? I tried but it told there’s an errror. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 14:01, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Modules are an interesting one, for there aren't pages in the normal Wikipedia sense. But as for the sandbox question, I doubt anyone would mind if you did. TheDragonFire300 (talk) 23:52, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
@TheDragonFire300, they are pages in the normal "Wikipedia" (probably better to say "MediaWiki" here) sense; it's just that they don't have the standard wikitext content model. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 21:29, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4: Indeed, would've been better to say MW there. To think that I've known the diff between WP and MW forever and still made that slipup... but yes, there is indeed a way to categorise modules as mentioned below; but I didn't know exactly the method at the time. TheDragonFire300 (talk) 02:50, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
To categorise a content model module, you would need to create a /doc subpage and add the category there. (You most likely don't want the documentation page itself included there, so I suggest wrapping it into <includeonly></includeonly> tags.) 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 21:33, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, ok I see. Thanks. The point of this categorization is that all pages should be included. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 15:08, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
Maybe you could do something like <includeonly>[[Category:Modules]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Category:Module documentation pages]]</noinclude> (with the necessary prefixes). 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 15:13, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, thank you very much! I tried it and it works! -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 15:59, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
Only problem is with Module:Wp/enm/Navbar/styles.css. A red link to a doc page didn’t appear so I assume if I created one manually it wouldn’t do the trick. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 16:09, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm not sure if .css pages can have documentations (this is yet another content model). 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 16:14, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, ok I see. Do you know of someone who might know this? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 17:27, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: I've made a massive error; I've re-checked an old XML dump of Wikipedia, and it does turn out that there is a copy of the diff at the time (look under the text field). It is therefore not true that "[t]he XML files do not contain any copy of any page on this wiki; it is downloaded by the MediaWiki instance." I would like to apologise sincerely for this. However, it is just wikitext, meaning that it won't look like the page on its own. You'll still need MediaWiki for that. TheDragonFire300 (talk) 07:55, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
@TheDragonFire300:, ok thanks for correcting. That’s also fine. The only “paradox” I see is that if you inform that you have finished, then I thank you those will be edits that weren’t included.😅 -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 15:09, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

@1234qwer1234qwer4, TheDragonFire300:Update: MF-Warburg has assured in the request for deletion that Middle English won’t be deleted overnight and that we will be given a chance to preserve it elsewhere:

I see that preparations for exporting the project are now being made. I also see that the strange happenings on the RFC (who even understands what's going on there anymore? …) have caused some panic about the allegedly impending deletion of the Wp/enm pages. I do think that it probably makes sense to delete the test-project if policy stays at not allowing approval of it, but I also wanted to assure you all that we won't delete the pages all of a sudden. If the contributors want to save their work elsewhere, we have always made this possible.

I also have no idea what’s going on the RfC. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 21:06, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

@Gifnk dlm 2020: Sorry I haven't checked in for a while. I admit, I completely forgot to perform the Special:Export dump; but do you still need me to do that, or can you or someone else do that? TheDragonFire300 (talk) 23:48, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

@TheDragonFire300:, currently the revised RfC which would have allowed some ancient languages but not Middle English (which is why I stated this thread) isn’t going anywhere, and because the incubator blocked creation of new articles in newly created test wikis of ancient languages, but not in test wikis that were created long ago like Wp/enm and some others. Also a mod in the incubator assured that deleted test wikis always get a chance to preserve their works. Thanks for the thought! -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 08:23, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: I went and exported it anyway. It was actually dead easy thanks to a category that applies to all enm pages, it seems, which I didn't know about when I first thought of exporting. The export was done with the "Include templates" option checked, and "Include only the current revision" disabled (so the entire history is preserved). Now, there's the issue of sharing it; if you're interested in the dump, then you could email me, and I'll be happy to share. TheDragonFire300 (talk) 08:32, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
@TheDragonFire300:, I previously did not have an email attached to my account, but i have attached an email address and sent you an email. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 09:05, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
...and I've moments ago sent a reply with the attachment. Instructions for importing included in the body, but I can also repost them here for public benefit. TheDragonFire300 (talk) 09:08, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
Hi @TheDragonFire300:, it’s been some time since you have sent and I still haven’t received it. Maybe it’s related to the size of the file, and I’m not experienced in how emailing via wikimedia works, but I suspect the email was sent by wikimedia and not by me (in order to hide the email addresses) then the reply was also sent to wikimedia. I assumed that the wikimedia server forwards those messages to the relevant emails but as of now, I still haven’t got it. Maybe it forwards with delays though. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 09:31, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Sorry to hear that. Everything looks fine on my end, so it must be an attachment size issue, then. I sent the message directly, rather than through Wikimedia's servers, and even though the attachment size is completely fine for Outlook, something else must've got stuck. I feared this would happen. All right, instead of attaching it, I'll upload a OneDrive link to the file instead, and resend the email. Stand by and I'll be back with it. Hope this one goes through, then! TheDragonFire300 (talk) 09:39, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
I've resent the email with a link instead of attachment. Try checking now, if you don't mind. TheDragonFire300 (talk) 09:45, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
@TheDragonFire300:, unfortunately I haven’t got this email either. Maybe you are sending them to the wrong address? Also, just curious to know, what’s the size of the files? -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 10:16, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
Looks like email's not going to work. Instead, I've left the link on your talk page. The dump is 6,843 KiB big, to answer your question. TheDragonFire300 (talk) 10:32, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
@TheDragonFire300:, thank you very much! I have downloaded it and wonder if it’s possible to upload to commons or to the internet archive. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 10:41, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
Perhaps. The dump file is yours now (of course, any content belonging to respective owners). Do whatever you want to it; upload it to r/datahoarder, Internet Archive... whatever you like. As someone who understands proper archival, I would certainly approve (and don't worry; I'll keep a local copy of the file as well). TheDragonFire300 (talk) 10:44, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
@TheDragonFire300:, I think i will create a folder with the dump you made, the dump someone else from r/DataHoarders made, and other files related to Middle English Wikipedia such as pdf versions of certain articles, then share the folder via internet archive or ipfs. This thread is getting long so if you would like to discuss this I think it would be preferable to create a new thread and on this talk page so that other users could join. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 10:53, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
I have created a new thread to discuss this topic. Because the new thread is on the bottom it has better visibility than this one which is both in the middle and long. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 13:14, 20 January 2022 (UTC)


@Liuxinyu970226:, hi I saw that you removed the notice I put in Middle Dutch Wikipedia with the text “langcom officially announced that they won't pass it”. What did you mean by this? The request was still open last time I checked. Did you mean specifically Middle Dutch Wikipedia? -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 17:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Because that "project" was maintained only by spammers. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 22:27, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
@Liuxinyu970226:, oh I see. So did it only say that it won’t approve of those two wikis (Middle and Old Dutch)? I saw your edits and thought it said it wouldn’t approve of ancient languages in general and didn’t understand why the RfC is still open. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 09:30, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020 You may want to read this response on why I can say that. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 09:28, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Wikimedia DVD Downloads[edit]

@1234qwer1234qwer4:, sorry if I’m spamming you, but do you know how the dvd downloads that can be seen here work, and how they can be created? Also, do they include the revisions? Thanks in advance and I hope I’m not spamming. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 08:22, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you'd want a DVD format, but it doesn't seem like you can request one for an arbitrary project. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 11:04, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, oh I see. I thought that users need to create a dvd dump themselves. Also I just assumed that with a dvd dump you can just put the disc in your computer and view the wiki. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 12:01, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
I'm not aware of any regular DVD dumps; the regular dumps are done automatically once in a couple weeks. I suppose a DVD dump will not contain a lot of content anyway, since it's very limited in size, so I doubt it would have any non-article pages or high-res images, let alone version histories. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 12:04, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, ok I see. But it looks for me like the dump of incubator is only 112.7 MB and most dvds have 4gb. Still, it probably won’t include the images. Also, I didn’t expect there to be regular dvd dumps, only a process to make one. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 12:59, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Language code enm is not valid.[edit]

Hi @1234qwer1234qwer4:, not long ago I pressed Check localisation requirements and saw the text 0 untranslated messages. I remember in January when I joined none of the messages were translated so I thought good, someone translated all of them. Then I clicked on several of them and saw “Language code enm is not valid”. Do you know why? It was valid back in January so why isn’t it valid now? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 13:51, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

No idea. According to en:Middle English, enm is indeed the correct language code in ISO 639-2 and -3. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 16:55, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, ikr. Do you think I should ping an incubator admin? I think what happened is they probably removed Middle English from their list in wikittanslate for some reason. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 18:27, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
You can try, though I think this is more likely to be a problem of mw:Extension:Translate. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 18:30, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, I don’t think that’s the case because I tried checking out Wp/ryu (Okinawan language) and Wp/grc (Ancient Greek language) and neither of them have similar problems. If this is a bug then it seems to specifically target Middle English Wikipedia. At least the fact that Ancient Greek works proves that it’s not a blanket ban on Ancient languages. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 19:09, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
@Abuse filter, Comp1089, Danny B., Ebe123, Hydriz, Kimberley-nia Bot, MF-Warburg, Minorax, Ninjastrikers, Ooswesthoesbes, Romaine, Sotiale, Yair rand:, do you have any idea what this is? I checked with Wp/orv (Old East Slavic/Old Russian) and they don’t have such troubles either. Looks like its only Middle English Wikipedia for some reason🤷🏻‍♂️ -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 19:13, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure how to interpret your answer. I never said anything you assumed. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 19:13, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, oh now I get it.😅 Did you mean that it should be a question directed to them and not to the admins of incubator? -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 19:18, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
When I saw “a problem of” I thought for some reason that you meant a bug. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 20:05, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
I don't understand you. I meant pretty much that. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 20:51, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, you are right. It was a misunderstanding from my side. I probably thought so because I was thinking about weather it’s a bug or if it’s deliberate and I saw the words “a problem” so my brain thought of bugs. Idk why I didn’t understand on the first time. My bad. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 21:00, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
I never said it was deliberate and would be surprised if it was. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 21:02, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
You didn’t. I was just trying to explain how this misunderstanding appeared. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 14:22, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
Yes. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 20:50, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
You're talking about a message on That's a question for them to answer. --MF-W {a, b} 22:49, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
@MF-Warburg:, ok thank you very much! How do I contact them? Also do they have WMF accounts so that it will be possible to ping them here? I think it’s preferable to keep Middle English Wikipedia related discussions in Middle English Wikipedia. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 14:24, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
@MF-Warburg:, you may have missed the ping. Do you know if there’s a way to contact them? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 09:03, 3 October 2021 (UTC) still just uses the languages from the Translate extension, I believe, so that seems more like a thing for Phabricator. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 10:52, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, is the only way to contact them using their website? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 13:49, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
As I said, you can report this as a Translation extension error on Phabricator. I doubt the extension has its own website. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 15:04, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, by “their website” I meant phabricator😅. This is what I might end up doing but I kind of prefer to keep discussions related to Middle English Wikipedia in Middle English Wikipedia if you know what I mean. However I will probably do what you suggested. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 16:17, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
The Wikimedia Phabricator is not "the website" of the Translate extension, though there is a project for it. Given that this appears to be a problem with the language support of the extension, this doesn't appear to be related to Middle English Wikipedia, so I'm not sure what exactly you mean. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 17:00, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, this problem seems to effect only Middle English Wikipedia that’s why I said it’s “related to it”. Anyways I think I will report it as an extension error like you suggested. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 11:17, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
How odes it only affect Middle English Wikipedia if you were translating on translatewiki? 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 11:33, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, if I remember correctly, last time I checked only Middle English had such an error message. However, now I checked also with Wp/grc (Ancient Greek), and Wp/cop (Coptic) and they seem to have the same problem. I also checked some wikis that are listed below “These are active and might get their own site soon” and they seem to have the same. I remember once there was a bug in “Check test wiki activity” that didn’t show test wiki activity but was later fixed so it’s probably the same here. I highly doubt they don’t already know about this since it seems to effect the entire incubator. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 12:23, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
If you want anything from them, translatewiki:Support is the right address. Speculating here brings no progress. -- MF-W {a, b} 13:16, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
@MF-Warburg:, thank you very much! Only because it’s a bug that affects the entire incubator I will first check to verify that nobody has reported it yet. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 13:44, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

@Gifnk dlm 2020:, I don’t understand what you mean. Wp/enn exists so it’s valid. -C64 is the best computer (talk) 17:33, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

@C64 is the best computer:, Wp/enm does exist. If you press “Check localization requirements”, you will see it says that it’s not valid for some reason. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 17:50, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Middle English without tears[edit]

Hi @Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, in the same website that you linked in a discussion above to help learn Middle English there’s a language course but it has only the first part and will only truly start in January 1 2021. So I was wondering, is it possible to add it to Wp/enm/Wikipaedia:Spelling and grammar or is it still too early for that? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 13:59, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Correction:January 1, 2022, -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 14:00, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
@Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, I have added this resource to Wp/enm/Wikipaedia:Spelling and grammar with a notice stating that it will only start on January 2022. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 11:10, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Ah yes, thank you for this. The site creator has postponed releasing this course a couple of times already, so hopefully they'll get it done this time and not postpone again! Laʒamon Æft-iboren (talk) 12:55, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
@Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, you are welcome. Hopefully it won’t get postponed. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 13:05, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Update: It was apparently postponed again. This time to January 1, 2023. Should I write that it will start in January 2023, or should I leave that it will hopefully start at an unknown date? -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 08:05, 29 January 2022 (UTC)


Hi, @1234qwer1234qwer4, MF-Warburg:, I know that several days have passed and I still have not reported this bug, but I would just like to make sure, does translatewiki use the same accounts that other Wikimedia projects or not? Because I can log in to Wikibooks fine but big ti translatewiki. Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 10:35, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

No, you need to create a separate account on translatewiki. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 00:46, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, ok. Thanks for clarifying! -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 12:28, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Deletion of article about Columbus[edit]

@MF-Warburg: why did you delete Wp/enm/Christopher Columbus? -C64 is the best computer (talk) 16:39, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Just FYI, when a user suggested to delete it it really didn’t have any useful content. I have since added. -C64 is the best computer (talk) 16:45, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

  • RESTORE* according to the deletion log it doesn’t look bad, definitely not bad enough to justify deletion.Pc98isthegreatestsystemevermad (talk) 17:08, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
Restore This is a newly created article since it didn’t exist last time I checked. According to the log it’s seem that it want created in order to troll so I think it should be restored. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 17:30, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

@Liuxinyu970226:, could you please restore the page? -C64 is the best computer (talk) 17:22, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Oppose as you're a sockpuppet, deletion is in general in right way to handle accounts like yours. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 11:09, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
And here I thought deletion exists for articles with no useful content or about non-notable topics. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 12:14, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
Also you didn’t tell what kind of evidence do you want submitted. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 12:34, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
The SRCU log is already enough. For notable, either you have to provide why the previous contents are notable, or why don't you just re-create? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:14, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
@Liuxinyu970226:, what do you mean by “SRCU log”? Also, I understand that every edit must be credited to the editors in the revision history so recreating it would violate this rule. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 05:30, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020Should I copy-paste this section for you for several times to let you remember what you did wrong? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 05:45, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
@Liuxinyu970226:, I know, letting someone else edit from my home probably wasn’t the best of ideas. I just asked what “SRCU” meant? Does it mean Steward Review CheckUser? -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 07:03, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
Regarding "letting someone else edit from my home probably wasn’t the best of ideas", if you really can tell us your evidences that you indeed allowed another human (not your another hand or leg), and you promise that their editing behaviors are at least 75% different from yours (see also some examples on the allowed cases), you may, and you may ask that user to, use this user page template. SRCU is the shortcut for Steward requests/Checkuser page on Meta-Wiki, you may argue that this shortcut is problemic, that's however irrelevant from this topic, and especially from what I'm concerning. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:47, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
@Liuxinyu970226:, again, you haven’t told how to submit this evidence. I can put this template on my user page but it seems as if the user you are talking about has forgotten his password. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 12:34, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
Unfortunatelly you don't have to worry about that problem, because afaik that user has been globally locked. Do not ask me to appeal it, instead send an email to [email protected]. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:47, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
@Liuxinyu970226:, I’m not surprised and I didn’t plan to ask for an appeal. As I have told, I can put this template on my user page if you feel it’s necessary. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 11:56, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@Abuse filter, Comp1089, Danny B., Ebe123, Hydriz, Kimberley-nia Bot, MF-Warburg, Minorax, Ninjastrikers, Ooswesthoesbes, Romaine, Sotiale, Yair rand:, pinging incubator admins. Any comment on the proposed restoration of thus article? As stated above, I can add this template to my user page. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 16:13, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

All contents can be seen in the deletion log, and I'm pretty sure that is incorrect Middle English. --OWTB (talk) 16:14, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
@Ooswesthoesbes:, if I’m not mistaken the article was deleted for not having any useful content. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 15:50, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Yes, that's why there is no reason for restoring it. --OWTB (talk) 15:51, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
@Ooswesthoesbes:, The creator of this article told me that when this template was added, the article only had the words “Columbus discovered America” with spelling mistakes. Then he tried to fix it but the article was deleted far sooner than he expected thus the mistakes. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 15:59, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
That is a lot of people to be pinging... Ebe123 (Talkabout it|contribs) 04:27, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

First weeks of Middle English Wikipedia[edit]

Í know the week of Albania is coming 18 of October and ends in 26 of October 2021 And the week of Ukraine is coming 21 of October and ends in 31 of October — The preceding unsigned comment was added by (discussioncontribs) 15:09, 11 October 2021.

@, several things:
  1. You can sign messages by typing ~~~~. (It’s highly desirable that you create an account as it will make collaboration easier but even if you don’t want please sign your messages).
  2. What are you talking about?😅
  3. I suggest checking out Template:Wp/enm/Contree for your newly created article. Is used in many pages you can check out Wp/enm/United States as an example.
Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 16:47, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
@Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, do you know what he’s talking about?-Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 12:33, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

What just happened[edit]

Ok, here’s how this looked like for me. I entered the incubator to check if there any new edits in ME WP. Then I saw a ping from @1234qwer1234qwer4: in meta:Steward requests/Checkuser, but when I entered the discussion was already archived. I checked the revision history to see the last revision where it still existed, and saw that I was “confirmed” as a sockpuppet of @C64 is the best computer:. Now, that user is not me and I know just that he created an article about Columbus, the article got deleted, and that he has left several comments here. The content during time of deletion according to the log was:

"{{delete|No useful content}} thumb Christopher Columbus was a trádere, explorer, an navigator from Genoa. His Italian náme is Crustoforo Colombo. Hé visitet Bahamas in North America in 1492."

Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 12:15, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

That does not sound very credible. --MF-W {a, b} 22:52, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

@QuiteUnusual:, hi I have seen your comment in English Wikibooks. After clarifications, I have understood that the edits you were talking about were done by another person (not me) using the same device with a different browser. Won’t happen again. :-) -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 21:01, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

I think I am inclined to believe you although I may check with the Steward who dealt with the CU request at Meta. At the moment you are autoblocked on en.wb because your underlying IP was blocked when the "sock" was blocked. I'm disinclined to remove the auto block as it would reveal your IP to anyone paying attention. It'll unblock automatically within a day QuiteUnusual (talk) 22:10, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
@QuiteUnusual:, ok I understand. Thank you very much! -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 12:27, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: But why do you think that C64 is the best computer isn't your account? Even both are confirmed? Are you really sure you're sharing same IP ranges in good behaviors? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:54, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi @1234qwer1234qwer4:, I have seen the comment you left in my talk page in EN WB. Indeed, the same person is behind @C64 is the best computer: and @Your favorite emperor:. He told that he was mad because @MF-Warburg: deleted his article but it seems as if he understands why such behavior is unacceptable. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 16:23, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

@Gifnk dlm 2020: Who is the 'he' you are talking about? And I'm also curious how you are so sure about the relationship between the two accounts presented. --Sotiale (talk) 11:38, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
@Sotiale:, oh he’s someone I know in real life. He wanted to create an article in Middle English Wikipedia and created one about Columbus. After it got deleted, and he submitted a request to restore it in this page , and after the deleter ignored despite being pinged, he decided to do what he did. There was no any vandalism from @C64 is the best computer: plus he edited from my house so blocking the ip would be blocking me not him, so I don’t think there’s any point in blocking him. P.S. I don’t condone such behavior as from @Your favorite emperor:, just explaining the process. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 13:47, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
@Sotiale:, I know this doesn’t account to actual evidence and for obvious reasons I won’t disclose any personal information of anyone. However I would like to say that the request to restore the page should be taken seriously regardless of what the user who created it may or may not have done. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 13:25, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
Oppose restoring the page you mentioned, unless if you have evidences to let stewards know that you're "not socking" Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:09, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
@Liuxinyu970226:, what kind of evidence do you want to see submitted? For obvious reasons I won’t release anyone’s personal information. Also from what I understand decisions in Wikipedia are not done by votes, but by arguments. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 08:36, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
Suggest permanently blocking User:C64 is the best computer, as they still didn't clarified their relations in their userpages. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:06, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Number of articles[edit]

Hi, according to the main page there are CD (400) articles, but according to the main category only 385. Which one is more reliable and what causes the inaccuracies in the second? First time I noticed this was in February. Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 13:03, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

A Religion[edit]

@Gifnk dlm 2020: Hello Gifnk! If possible, please create an article on en:Sanamahism in this enm wiki and if possible, please add it to the enm mainpage too. Thanks! :) Haoreima (talk) 14:18, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

@Haoreima:, sure. I can create such a page. Usually I like to use Simple English Wikipedia as a starting point since it’s easy to translate. Could you please verify if the content there is factual? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 15:48, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Yes, but it's best if we put the information "ancient ancestor worshipping religion" as the third sentence. Haoreima (talk) 16:01, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, ok thanks for the feedback. I will start work on the article right away. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 16:05, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: You are right! Choosing simple english wiki article is a good choice because regular english articles associated with this topic has been the place of edit warring by many editors. So, neutrality is often challenged. And as I can't edit regular english wiki, there's either none or very few people who know the topic well in depth to upgrade the information on this topics. Very sad! Haoreima (talk) 16:09, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, I have created the page Wp/enm/Sanamahism. The reason you listed is not what I meant but it’s also a good one. I meant that it’s easier to translate short sentences and then expand upon them. Nevertheless, I hope ME WP does better than English Wikipedia in terms of neutrality. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 16:38, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Also hī is the Middle English equivalent to they. You can learn more in the following link: -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 16:39, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: You are right! I shall try to learn Middle English soon! And thank you for creating the article on this religion! I don't know how thee, thou, thy,thine, art,eve, morn, etc. are interpreted in Middle English! :) Haoreima (talk) 16:43, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, you are welcome. You can find a list of online resources about Middle English Wikipedia at the end of Wp/enm/Wikipaedia:Spelling and grammar. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 17:07, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Thank you! But if possible, please add this religion's name to your main page! :) Haoreima (talk) 11:56, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, Done ✅. Also in Wp/enm/Religioun. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 14:29, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
Thank you so much! :) Haoreima (talk) 02:15, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
@Haoreima: You are welcome. :-) -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 09:27, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

BTW, @Haoreima:, I have noticed Wp/omp was really active back then but not now. Just curious to know, do you have plans to make it active again? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 08:24, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@Gifnk dlm 2020: Of course, I will be back soon! But I have a great desire to make the contents of Manipuri wikipedia/Meitei wikipedia reach 10,000 articles. Yesterday, SHE reached 8000+. And I hope within a few weeks, SHE will cover her 10k+ articles. In fact, I consider "mni wiki" as mother and "Wp/omp" as grandma. After decorating Mom, I will adore my grandma! :) Haoreima (talk) 08:35, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, ok. Great to know. Good luck with reaching 10,000 articles in mni wp. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 08:49, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Yesterday, SHE reached HER milestone of 10,000 articles. I was about to inform you yesterday but due to lots of works confined, I almost forgot you! Sorry! :) Haoreima (talk) 03:07, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, great to know! Keep up for good work! -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 08:43, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Plz, dont mistake :)[edit]

Recently I created the article about Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan Put the flag and COA (coat of arms) of Taliban in the infobox due to trendly dangerous August events Thank you! 07:53, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@, I have added a country template. You can check it out. Please consider making an account for future contributions as it makes collaboration a lot easier. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 08:21, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Recruiting members[edit]

@Gifnk dlm 2020, 1234qwer1234qwer4, YoungstownToast, JustinCB, Qmwne235, Gray Porpoise, Laʒamon Æft-iboren, Cbrown1023, Katxis, Varlaam, LittleWhole, S. Roelants, PolarWafflez, Vikipad, Sgman1991, The Hypnotizer, Liuxinyu970226, DTL1234, MF-Warburg:, @Warofdreams,, Xbspiro, Kimberley-nia Bot, Artoria2e5, X Parasite~incubatorwiki, EvilPita, Whaales, AurelianusAmbrose, TheDragonFire300, NASAPeepo, Nevergonnagiveyou, Alfred our king, Zarzagoa, GoodClover, DiuPater, Haffdxco, Ooswesthoesbes, Haoreima:, @Ursulageorges, Malhonen, Pc98isthegreatestsystemevermad, 夢桜宮見久, C64 is the best computer, ChimNung, CommonsDelinker, Firsfron, OTOD tag, Xaosflux, Krencko, Heremaecg, MerlIwBot, PastelKos, Underfell Flowey, Chris.Taub.M.D., Hasley, Sub to pewdipi, Guillermo2149, Romaine:, @Steinbach, Doogdoggo1234, Biglittlehugesmall65, ABAlphaBeta, Potvisgg, Bridget, Jkrosado, Timichal, Anton Kazmyarchuk, Schwei2, Mike Dillon, Catfish Enthusiast, Wikitiki89, SolsticeComesAndGoes, Minorax, TungstenPoet1, Venca24, Wiki13, CaptainGastronomicon:, @Murchison-Eye, Footyspeed, Bouymanbob, Child of Garrett, InternetArchiveBot, Counselbytheelves, JonsterMonster, UgandanSonic375, Markus included, Jared, Sfenj, JamesR1701E, James Johnson, Nailuj29, StevenJ81, A FROGGE, Atavoidturk, Ryulong, AzaToth, Ebe123:, pinging the top 100 users in “check test wiki activity”. It’s obvious that Middle English Wikipedia has become less active that it used to be, and I’m curious to know if you have any ideas on ways how to contact people interested and knowledgeable in Middle English. Since I have joined this wiki in January of this year, I have tried multiple ways and maybe I have got a wrong impression but I don’t think anyone of them has brought people passionate about Middle English Wikipedia to hear. I would love to hear your suggestions, and if you know people whom you think might be interested even if just to read not to write, please tell them about this wiki. The link is Also I feel this discussion is also relevant for Wp/omp and Wp/grc even though the latter seems to have multiple passionate users. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 11:02, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Pinging global locked accounts e.g. C64 is the best computer is not only useless, but also a potential reason to trigger global ban if one day other criterias of that thing met. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 07:11, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
@Liuxinyu970226:, I don’t see how any of those reasons can be triggered by pinging editors of this wiki on a topic of such high importance. Also, I will be grateful if you ping me in your reply. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 16:04, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Usage of &[edit]

From what I understand, the ampersand didn't take it's current shape until modern English. Would it make sense to use a different character to represent it, should it be entirely replaced with "and", or should it stay as &? — The preceding unsigned comment was added by (discussioncontribs) 17:36, 16 December 2021.

Hi @, according to ampersand, the symbol was used by the ark and in the first century A.D. and that Byrhtferð (970-1020) considered it as a letter in the English alphabet. Also, don’t forget to ding your messages by typing ~~~~ and it’s highly desirable though not mandatory that you create an account. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 20:48, 16 December 2021 (UTC)


Hi @I have 2 dollars in my pocket:, I see that the image you uploaded to commons for use in Middle English Wikipedia is in risk of getting deleted. I also see that you downloaded it from pixabay, a website that allows free use without attribution necessary. Please add this licensing information otherwise the file will get deleted in 7 days. Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 21:06, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

@Túrelio:, pinging a commons admin, multiple images from pixabay have been uploaded recently to commons for use in Middle English Wikipedia. I know that pixabay allows to freely use their images but I see in commons it’s written that if no copyright info is written it will be deleted in 7 days. What to do? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 07:41, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
@Jmabel:, maybe you know what should be done? -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 16:14, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
I could be mistaken, and I can't specifically speak to any uploads directly to the Middle English Wikipedia (I don't know their policies on non-free use) but I think since Pixabay's changed their license, it's no longer "free enough" for Commons. They have two (perfectly reasonable) prohibitions:
✕ Don't redistribute or sell Pixabay content on other stock or wallpaper platforms.
✕ Don't sell unaltered copies of content, e.g. don't sell an exact copy of a stock photo as a poster, print or on a physical product.
Unfortunately, those perfectly reasonable prohibitions make their content insufficiently free for Commons. - 19:26, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
@, you can’t upload directly to Middle English Wikipedia so all images are uploaded to commons. So does this license not allow upload to commons even though it’s free for use with no attribution required? -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 08:23, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Not allowed because of the two restrictions I quoted above. - 18:29, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
@, I see. Makes sense thank you very much!
No offense to the IP address who posted this but @1234qwer1234qwer4:, is this true? It makes sense based on previous experience with commons that those restrictions would make it ineligible for inclusion but just want to be sure. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 18:50, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020 See c:template:Pixabay. Before 9 January 2019, Pixabay files were licensed freely, but I don't know which file you are talking about specifically. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 15:10, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, oh I see. Thank joy very much! It seems though that some of the images were uploaded after 2019. Here are the links: File:Honey been.jpg (2021), File:Waspy.jpg (2018). Also there’s File:A vairity of insecte.png which says that it was taken from Wikipedia not sure what that means. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 15:45, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, I have added a template for the page about wasp. Also @Spamton1997:, don’t forget to add license information for images you plan to upload in the future. Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 16:36, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Why so simple?[edit]

Why do we have to make all of the ME articles so simple? Why don't we treat it like the English Wikipedia? 15:44, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

@, are you talking about the fact that most of the articles are short? Ideally it should be like English Wikipedia but unfortunately there’s much less activity therefore the articles are naturally shorter. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 15:48, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

It makes sense most articles are short since the wiki is smallBhhghj (talk) 20:06, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Standardization questions[edit]

  1. Do we use obsolete letters like þ?
  2. Do we use the letters J and V?
  3. Do we use "biþ/bith" or "is" as the 3rd person singular copula? 13:26, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
@, based on previous consensus “yes” for questions 1 and 3, though I don’t think there ever was a decision about the second question. I wonder if @Laʒamon Æft-iboren: has anything to say about the topic. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 14:07, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
@, @Gifnk dlm 2020:
1. Yes, you can use þ, ȝ, ſ, ð, ƿ, and/or æ, though none are essential. The first 3 are appropriate for any variety of Middle English (M.E.), while the last 3 are suitable if you're aiming to write in an early M.E. variety, so pre-1350-ish (pre-1250-ish for æ).
2. V, definitely. 'U' and 'V' are used completely interchangeably on this Wiki as they were historically (there were some conventions about when to use which, but nothing that all scribes followed historically, nor that all editors here do today). 'J' and 'I' were also sort of interchangeable, though I only use 'J' occasionally, mostly at the end of a word or in some names, because it was rarer historically. If in doubt, use 'I'.
3. Both forms are valid. I think 'biþ' (+ variant spellings) is used disproportionately often vs. 'is' (+ variants) on M.E. Wikipaedia compared to historically, where 'is' is more common than 'biþ'. Using 'biþ' is an easy way to make an article sound less modern, though, so I can understand why it's preferred.
With regards to the section title, there is currently no standardisation (of language) on M.E. Wiki, and I expect it will stay that way, as there was no standard dialect or spelling system until the end of the M.E. period - and even then only partially. There are also other discussions relating to some of these topics elsewhere on this talk page. -Laʒamon Æft-iboren (talk) 00:23, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
@Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, Thank you very much! I think this information should be added to Wp/enm/Wikipaedia:Spelling and grammar. -📜GIFNK📚DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK⌚️📱⌨️🖥🖨🕹💽💾💿📀📸📹🎥📽🎞📠📺📻📡🔋CONTRIBS) 12:31, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, what do you think? -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 19:39, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: I agree with Layman.
1. The first three chars are mandatory. I have seen no middle english text that does not use thorn, yogh. However, I disagree with the long s thing, because it was dropped somewhere in the 1400's, so it depends on the period. Also, wynn and ash are much earlier, in the 1250- and 1350-ish time.
3. Is and bith are interchangeable, though is is more common.
2. Correct.
Last one - There are absolutely no standardized spelling or dialect conventions in literacy.
Þancie þe, AMICVS·III | TALK 23:03, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, thank you very much! Do you think it should be added to Wp/enm/Wikipaedia:Spelling and grammar? -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 08:00, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Yes I believe it should be added to Wp/enm/Wikipaedia:Spelling and grammar. Since you agree, I will go ahead and write it there. Þancie þe, AMICVS·III | TALK 13:08, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, thank you very much! -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 15:16, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

New here[edit]

Hi I’m new here How to edit Middle English Wikipedia?Bhhghj (talk) 20:02, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

nvm I managed to figure out still would love to get some explanationsBhhghj (talk) 20:48, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Is there a faster way to typing ME characters other than copy-pasting? Amicus111 (talk) 21:31, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Is there a faster way to type ME characters rather than copy-pasting? Amicus111 (talk) 21:33, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

@Amicus111:, in visual editing in desktop mode, you can type Unicode characters by pressing on the button right of “Insert”. Not sure if searching there is faster than copy pasting or not though. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 21:54, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
You might be able to configure a custom keyboard (e.g., using the Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator for Windows). 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 12:05, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, sorry for the late reply. I have missed your message. I edit using an iPad but @Amicus111: might find this of interest. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 18:43, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
The app costs 5 dollars or so but you can use Unicode Pad Pro to create custom keyboards on iOS/iPad OS devices. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 20:07, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, oh I see. I’m already accustomed to copying and pasting from other articles but thanks anyways. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 22:45, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4: and @Gifnk dlm 2020:; þank þe boþ of you. after þe þing þat i read þat was qwer's suggestion i found þat þe special character panel is as fast as the keyboard. alþough, i do not have þe computer. þþþÞþ. Thank you, AMICVS·III 20:25, 30 December 2021 (UTC) þ
@Amicus111:, great to know! -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 22:46, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Merry Christmas 2021 to Middle English Wikipedia[edit]

Happy New Year 2022 for Middle English Wikipedia[edit]

Also enjoy the New Year animation I have made. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 22:25, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
@DTL1234, Vinguru, Josephine W., Bywok, GoodClover, Varlaam, Amicus111, Laʒamon Æft-iboren, TungstenPoet1, Yoshi161, Zarzagoa, 1234qwer1234qwer4:, Happy New Year! -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 00:01, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Reflections on the year 2021[edit]

The year 2022 has started in Israel so it’s time to reflect on our accomplissements in 2021, and out plans for 2022. It’s important to remember that before 2021, there was not a single month with 3 non greyed out users, but every month in 2021 has. Before 2021, there was not a single month with more than 90 edits but every single month in 2021 has. I think it’s safe to say that 2021 has been the best year for Middle English Wikipedia so far and hopefully 2022 will be better. Happy New Year y’all! -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 22:22, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Also in 2021, there were 11 threads in this talk page. Now there are 53. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 22:23, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Middle English Without Tears has not started yet.[edit]

Hi@1234qwer1234qwer4, Haoreima, Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, In Wp/enm/Wikipaedia:Spelling and grammar, I have added to the list of resources Middle English Without Tears that was supposed to start on January 1, 2022. Now is January 6 and it still hasn’t. What do you think should I do, remove the resource from the list completely or write will start at an unknown date? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 14:40, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Gifnk dlm 2020: The page you linked is a very informative page. I keep it under my watchlist. Please don't remove or delete it if possible. Your wish is the ultimate but I just like it be kept and developed, like you were doing before! :-) Haoreima (talk) 14:46, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, oh. I also don’t like the idea of removing it from the list. I think I will just write “will start at an unknown date”. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 15:43, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Unable to create any new article[edit]

I am unable to create any new article in Wp/omp test wiki. While trying to create so, the process is automatically blocked. But I can edit the existing articles in the Wp/omp. What is the problem behind this? Can it be fixed? Haoreima (talk) 16:32, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

@Haoreima:, at first I thought that it’s a bug but based on the discussions it appears otherwise. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 16:50, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
It's really heartbreaking to me! But what could I do! "Creation ability is always with me, but the ultimate authority is never with me!" --Haoreima (talk) 17:00, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
"Expectation is the root of all heartache!" _William Shakespeare! Haoreima (talk) 17:00, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, I see what happened. I tried creating Wp/omp/Mayne Page that will just redirect to main page. It supposedly works until the moment I want to publish the page, then it says “You are trying to create a page without a valid ISO 639-1 or -3 code”. I’m not really sure why it doesn’t it work since omp is clearly a valid code. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 17:23, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: That very reason is just for namesake! The true reason is "not allowing ancient languages, except enm & grc"! You guys are lucky! We are unlucky! :-) Haoreima (talk) 18:04, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
I think all the root cause is the exhaustive discussions in meta! Conclusions after conclusions, pingings after pingings make me unable to grasp any sort of information properly for what those arguing editors are talking about! Lol! It's after the conclusion that only selective ancient languages will be allowed to create wiki, that omp article creations get blocked. Haoreima (talk) 18:08, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, yeah it’s most likely related to the meta discussion however I doubt it was a direct result of it. It looks for me like a decision of the incubator not of meta. Maybe it was done to omp wp because it’s new being less than a year old idk. Might be worth it to ping the admins here. You can see the list by pressing on “Administrators: Contact Incubator administrators”. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 18:22, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Also the admins in meta seem to be strictly against grc and enm but I understand that deleting a test wiki is more complicated than that. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 18:24, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: I directly contacted a bureaucrat, at whose talk page you even added a comment before! Besides, I brought the topic on the Community portal. But everyone responding says "no ancient languages except enm & grc" and nothing else! It's a problem! Haoreima (talk) 18:27, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Blocking the creation of new articles is the same like deleting the test wiki project! Hope you might have read the story of "The Happy Prince"! Haoreima (talk) 18:29, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Yeah it’s a huge problem. But from my experience here, not all admins react the same maybe you will manage to convince one of them that it’s a mistake though because of the wiki system I doubt this would make a difference. The true question is the risk/reward one - what will you gain if you succeed (that’s obvious - saving omp wp), and what you would lose if you fail that you would not lose if you had not tried. The decision is yours. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 18:41, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Btw @1234qwer1234qwer4:, I hate to bother you but do you have an opinion on this topic? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 18:47, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
I get that it is unfair to allow ancient language wikis in one language but not in another, but why are you so sure that this is a deliberate exclusion? (I had similar thoughts with #Language code enm is not valid.) 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 19:49, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, I assumed that it was a bug at first but the discussions in User talk:MF-Warburg#Unable to create any new article, and Incubator:Community Portal#Unable to create any new article suggest otherwise. I’m not saying the change is definitely deliberate, it’s still possible that it’s a bug but there doesn’t seem to be a sense of urgency to fix it. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 20:45, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima: it seems as if Wp/sjn has the same issues. Pinging the main contributor to Sindarin Wikipedia: @Calad-ne-dúath:. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 15:23, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Thank you Gifnk dlm for your concern for Wp/omp! And yes, let's wait for Wp/sjn editor's comments! :-) Haoreima (talk) 15:30, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: I saw this is not only for Wp/omp & Wp/sjn, but also for these:
(1) Incubator:Administrators' noticeboard#Blocking new pages by User:Eliahu21 - there's blocking before but now it's fixed. I can even create redirect. I saw this.
(2) Incubator:Administrators' noticeboard#Unable to create Wp/mhj by User:ㅎㄱㄱㄹ예 - seems the problem is still going on.
(3) Incubator:Administrators' noticeboard#Wp/mi-cha creation by an anonymous user - the problem is still not fixed.
(4) Incubator:Administrators' noticeboard#wp/yol & Incubator:Administrators' noticeboard#Wikipedia Yola by User:MichaelDMelvin23 - seems the problem is still not fixed.
So, guys! Please tell us what shall we do now? Haoreima (talk) 15:44, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
If there's Wikipedia for a fictional language like Esperanto, then why not ours, which have many editors? No matter, if a language is fictional or ancient, if it has sufficient interested editors to keep working, it need not to get blocked! Haoreima (talk) 15:50, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, yeah unfortunately it seems to fit the pattern I suspected. Wp/grc, Wp/enm, and Wp/tmr were both created long ago I presume before the policy banning wikis in ancient languages came into place. The wikis that don’t work seem to be recent creation. I agree 100% about your comment that those wikis don’t need to get blocked but be careful about using “fictional” for languages like Esperanto as it implies a language that was created for a work of art like a book, a game, or a movie. For example Sindarin is a fictional language, some users might point to this inaccuracy calling Esperanto a fictional language and refuse to hear the rest of the argument. I think that in terms of fairness, it should be wikis that we’re created before the blocking started that should be grandfathered, even if they were created after the policy banning ancient languages from getting subdomains but it seems that the incubator mods think differently. Hopefully they will hear us. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 17:23, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Let's put our issue to . What do you think? Before proceeding there, let's prepare what shall we say? Haoreima (talk) 08:52, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, that sounds like a plan. We can say something along the line of “There are test wikis at the incubator where crating new pages was blocked. These are not empty wikis with one or two pages, but wikis with a relatively large quantity of articles whose contributors are interested in expanding upon and creating new ones. This only effects wikis created recently in 2021 or so. I suggest to make it only block creation of new test wikis but not effect test wikis created before the incubator started blocking the creation of new articles.” Feel free to improve the wording. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 09:14, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
In what category do you plan on putting the proposal? -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 09:27, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
Presently, I have no decision. But I am just thinking what and how to proceed! As you have proposing experience at meta, I prefer you to carry on the task for all of us. Else, I will do it. Regarding category, I have no idea about categorization as of now. Haoreima (talk) 09:30, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, you have mentioned my “proposing experience”. I would like to mention that I don’t think I’m at good terms with meta also it might be preferable that someone who was actually affected by those changes will write the comment, however I’m not against writing it myself. Just remember that we have to post it before te voting begins. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 13:49, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Shall I do it at "Community Wishlist Survey 2022/Miscellaneous"? Haoreima (talk) 14:02, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, It makes sense to do so, but I think also the section “Editing” works. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 14:12, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Yeah, so, I did at the section “Editing”. Haoreima (talk) 14:52, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, hopefully they will fix it. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 15:59, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: They archived the proposal. Lol! I have to say "Lol" and what else! I can't say "Alas"! :):-) Haoreima (talk) 17:31, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, Yeah, it seems as if that page is only for technical features not for policy. Idk who else can be contacted. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 17:37, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
*who else to contact. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 17:38, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Yes, I am also in doubt to whom I should contact. Another thing, I still can't revise even a brief summary of the meta:Requests for comment/Start allowing ancient languages. Could you? If so, could you please tell me what really happened to the final decision? What I have known about it is that there were endless arrays of arguments. And I can't understand whose side was holding the upper hand. Could you please explain me in brief? Like you, I attempted today but see! it's completed right now! :-) Haoreima (talk) 17:50, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, sure I will tell you my experience in brief. When I thought enm wp would end up getting deleted, I submitted an rfc to start allowing ancient languages. Then I mentioned it in multiple test wikis and actual wiki (ones with subdomians). It has quickly got some support comments, but then not long after some opposes as well. Long-term the support comments out weighted the oppose ones by more than 2:1 and the page was getting longer and longer, I calculated that on track to being one of the longest requests for comments in the history of meta (length is measured in bytes). Then, at some point JimKilock came, and before I tell what happened, I would like to say that I do not doubt for a moment that what we did was in good faith and with good intentions. Basically he tried to come up with a compromis plan with LangCom, and archived all the previous discussions in order that they will see only the new proposal. Then some of the comments by the request of a mod (Future Perfect at Sunrise), some of the discussions were moved to the talk page of the RfC. I feel that this experience has demotivated users who supported the RfC from expressing their opinions on the page though I could be wrong. The compromise has changed multiple times and I have not analyzed it thoroughly, but as of now there is no decision and the RfC is still open for comments. In the endless array of arguments the two sides kept trying convince the other but without much success. I only truly participated in the discussion up until September 8, 2021 which is slightly after the mass archiving. Hope that helps. :-)-Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 19:03, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Since the RFC is not closed yet, still we have a hope! But the scope of our hope isn't too wide! Well, the thing which really isn't favourable to the RFC is the series of compromise proposals. It deviates the aim and the purpose of the request! It's like a Trojan epic in Mediterranean, or the Khamba Thoibi in oriental epics, in some sense! So, as of now, do you agree with only specific languages compromise or are you still standing for the former non specific all ancient languages' request? :-) Haoreima (talk) 05:58, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, Yeah I also feel so. I think the specific language compromise is more like a “do whatever you want” compromise. They can still with such a compromise disapprove grc wp even though it was written with the intention of allowing grc wp. I think the decision should be based on the amount & quality of the content, and from the recent activity. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 07:17, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

@Haoreima:, this isn’t really something related, but I have submitted a request that will help test wikis. meta:Community Wishlist Survey 2022/Miscellaneous/Graph showing which articles link to each other for incubator. Also, did you figure out who to contact to? -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 16:53, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

@Gifnk dlm 2020: I ain't sure whom to contact but I am sure that some editors, most probably some experienced editors like admins, will surely comment in your request page within a few days ! And I have kept your request page under my watchlist. So, I will join the discussion as soon as someone says something! As of now, I don't know what to say! If you have any suggestions, you are mostly welcome! :-) Haoreima (talk) 03:17, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, yeah I also think some editors will react. If I get an idea on whom to contact, I will be sure to inform you. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 14:39, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

User group for ancient languages[edit]

@DTL1234, Vinguru, Gifnk dlm 2020, Josephine W.:, pinging users from meta:Category:User enm
@Bywok, DTL1234, GoodClover, Varlaam, Amicus111, Laʒamon Æft-iboren, TungstenPoet1, Yoshi161, Zarzagoa:, pinging users from Category:Users:By language:enm
There’s a user group for ancient language promotion, education, and support. It can be found here. I thought you might be interested in it. Also there’s a discussion to rename the group, see the talk page thread “Applying for recognition”. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 10:29, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Welcoming new users[edit]

@1234qwer1234qwer4, Vikipad:, I have recently started welcoming new users en English Wikibooks, and this reminded me of a previous thread where we discussed welcoming new users to Middle English Wikipedia using a bot. I suggest welcoming them manually. We can create Template:Wp/enm/Welcome, then when a user new to Middle English Wikipedia does an edit here, we will create a new three in his user talk page called “Welcome to Middle English Wikipedia” and write there {{subst:Wp/enm/Welcome}} -~~~~. That way even if Wp/enm gets deleted or gets a subdomain, the text of the welcome message will stay on the user page. What do you think about this? -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 10:09, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

@Haoreima:, since you have a lot of experience editing Meitei Wikipedia, Simple English Wikipedia, Wikidata, and Wikimedia Commons, what do you think about this idea? Do you have experience welcoming new users in at least one of those wikis? -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 20:18, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Once a registered user in a particular wiki (for example English Wikipedia), has entered into another wiki (for example Meitei Wikipedia), s/he gets automatic registration there in mni too. In such case, most people welcome him/her only after s/he does at least one edit. But in some wikis, for example Thai Wikipedia, Classical Chinese Wikipedia, German Wikivoyage, generally bots automatically welcome visiting registered users, even though s/he has no edits. In Meitei Wikipedia, there's no bot to carry on this task but I manually welcome everyone visiting at my homewiki, no matter they did any edit or not.! :-) Haoreima (talk) 02:25, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
I want to operate a bot but I don't know how to do it. Haoreima (talk) 02:26, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
According to my experience with Meitei Wikipedia, talk pages of users who contributed to Meitei test wiki aren't imported to Meitei Wikipedia. So, all the talks at incubator always remain at incubator. It's a contrast to my expectations. But now, I understand. Once I welcome User:Ferien at his talk page at here, incubator, saying "Welcome to Omp Wikipedia!" because he started editing contributing to omp test wiki. But later, I fell that my action wasn't right. I must say "Welcome to Incubator" instead because this wiki is not omp Wikipedia and will never be omp Wikipedia, it will always be Wikimedia Incubator. In fact, I fell shy of my wordings "Welcome to omp Wikipedia!". Haoreima (talk) 02:31, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, I don’t think telling them “Welcome to omp Wikipedia” is wrong even though the thread will stay on the incubator forever. For one, there is a welcoming bot which automatically welcomes them to the incubator so by the time you find them chances are they already got such a message. In order to avoid confusion, you can write “Welcome to omp wp test wiki” or something like that but I think it’s better to write the full name of the language so “Welcome to Ancient Meitei Wikipedia test wiki” or “Welcome to Middle English Wikipedia test wiki”. If we create the template in the test wikis, and then use subt, then the content of the welcome message will be in there talk pages and even if the test wikis get deleted or get a subdomain it won’t effect their talk pages. Also, I don’t think there’s anything wrong in giving new users free resources straight in there talk pages 🤪 even if it’s just for a test wiki. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 07:39, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
Also, I have checked out User talk:Ferien, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with your comment, but in my opinion, it’s best in the future to link to resources in the language, and also to some sources you found in the internet archive in the language or to a page containing a list of them. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 07:45, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Would a wikimedia chat client be useful for Wp/enm (or other test wikis)?[edit]

Hi, soon the voting process will begin for the Community Wishlist Survey 2022, and there’s a proposed chat client. The suggestion can be found here. This will be an alternative to talk pages, but the question is will it be useful for us? I have seen a compelling argument about this being useful for wikiversity. Maybe it will be useful for larger wikis but not for Wp/enm but I would love to here other opinions as well. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 10:15, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

@Amicus111, Haoreima:, what do you think? Voting starts in one week! -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 13:16, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
Hey Gifnk dlm 2020 ! I will check it out. Meanwhile, I also forgot to tell you about this meta:Community Wishlist Survey 2022/Citations/Enable Citoid on all wikis, which I started. Actually, what do you think about the inability to use citoid in incubator? Shall not it be enabled here too? Haoreima (talk) 13:24, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, yah k you very much! I agree that it’s annoying that citation tools are not available on all wikis. I remember when joining Middle English Wikipedia (slightly more than a year ago), I thought that it’s impossible to cite sources. It was only later that I created Template:Wp/enm/Cite web. So yes I hope your request passes and I’m not sure if I should post a comment now or after the voting process starts. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 13:38, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Preserving Middle English Wikipedia dumps[edit]

Hi @TheDragonFire300:, thank you very much for making the dump! I have thought of making a folder which will include this dump, the previous dump made by a user from r/DataHoarders which includes just the articles and not the specified revisions, a pdf version of this talk page, a gif of the new year (since in the pdf version it will show just one frame of it), pdf versions of rejected requests for enm.wikipedia, of the Request for Comment at meta, and a read me file. My main problem is that idk if and when Middle English Wikipedia will get deleted, and since ipfs is static files only and if I create the archive now it will not include changes made after the archive was made. If I knew that the test wiki for Middle English Wikipedia won’t get deleted or alternatively that it will get deleted on a specific date I would be able to prepare the pdf version of this discussion page accordingly. I would love to hear your thoughts about this. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 13:12, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

So I have created a folder with all the files I told I would except a pdf version of this discussion page as it will grow with time. I understand that when a wiki gets deleted an xml dump becomes available but one has to request it. Hopefully we will get informed about it’s deletion in advance so I will be able to download this discussion page as a pdf as well. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 14:51, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
@TheDragonFire300, Haoreima, 1234qwer1234qwer4:, I can ping the moderator who promised that we would get a chance to preserve Middle English Wikipedia and ask what are the plans. If they plan to delete Middle English Wikipedia in the coming time, then some time before the deletion I will download the pdf version of this discussion page, and I will include it in the folder tighter with the xml dump that TheDragonFire300, the xml dump generated before the deletion of this project, as well as other files related to Middle English Wikipedia. Then I will upload this folder to Middle English Wikipedia. If there are no plans on deleting this test wiki then I will just download the pdf version of this discussion page, add it to the otherwise nearly complete folder, and upload to ipfs. Hopefully other people will pin it. What do you think about my plan? -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 19:34, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
Good idea! Haoreima (talk) 03:16, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, the problem is that because based on the fact that Middle English Wikipedia can still create new articles while some wikis including Ancient Meitei can’t, i don’t think there’s evidence of a planned deletion and doing so feels almost like asking to delete this wiki. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 09:01, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
I don't understand what you mean by "doing so"? Haoreima (talk) 09:49, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima: by pinging the moderator and asking are there plans to delete the test wiki. It feels almost like asking him to delete. After thinking about it I think I will create an archive in ipfs and if the test wiki gets deleted, I will create a second one. Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 10:17, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
enm & grc are grandfathered this time. But there's no assurance that these 2 will get the same chance in future also. So, I think you can't create a new one if it's deleted once. BTW, plan for deletion is just our imagination. :-) Haoreima (talk) 10:30, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, even if it is possible to create a new one after it gets deleted, it doesn’t really matter since it would just get deleted very soon. My main concern is in creating an archive of Middle English Wikipedia in IPFS. In case you don’t know what it is, basically it works similar to BitTorrent but web hosting. I plan on creating a website with files related to Middle English Wikipedia, pdf versions of certain discussion pages and of notable articles, dumps, and people will be able to pin the website on there computers to help keep it available. Now I don’t want to publish the archive now if the test wiki is gonna get deleted soon and I will have to publish another archive. That’s my dilemma. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 11:43, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Very soon, I will plan for a wikisource for both Ancient Meitei and Modern Meitei, grandma and ma respectively! :-) :-) I found many interesting books in, which I regularly read to hunt some reliable sources for writing Wikipedia articles! What about you? Won't you create a wikisource test wiki for enm? Haoreima (talk) 12:38, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, good luck with both Wikisource projects! Incubating Wikisources are not kept in the incubator, but in instead. Once when I suggested creating a Middle English Wikisource, I got negative reactions from am English Wikisource moderator who told they can be kept and are kept in English Wikisource. There once was an Old English Wikisource and though it’s still available [ here], editing is blocked. I think it will work out better for you, especially if there are other languages that are défendent from Ancient Meitei, not just Modern Meitei. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 12:52, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Could you please explain me your last sentence? I am little bit confused at the French addition to your wordings! :-) Haoreima (talk) 12:59, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, The French edition is because of autocorrect. I wanted to write descendent. Like how many languages are descendent from Latin. Ancient languages are eligible for Wikisource so be sure to try to get it. I suggest to invite other people interested and add as many texts as possible, while also proving the ability to detect and react to vandalism. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 13:28, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
Autocorrect again. French addition not edition. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 13:32, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Oh I understand now! Well, if we are to do, we should do it as soon as possible because who knows, some months later, a new policy might be regulated that ancient language isn't allowed in all the WMF projects. :) Haoreima (talk) 13:34, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

@Haoreima:, I’m replying here to avoid having too many tabs. Yeah, I agree. Start ASAP but also it’s preferable not to start alone. Try together with other Ancient Meitei speakers to form a community. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 14:04, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

BTW @Haoreima:, it’s notable to mention that users from Chinese Wikisource strongly oppose creating a Classical Chinese Wikisource saying it would “split their community”. I hope y’all don’t have such problem and can clearly distinguish what goes to Ancient Meitei Wikisource and what to Meitei Wikisource. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 14:23, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Voting starts today[edit]

@1234qwer1234qwer4, Laʒamon Æft-iboren, LittleWhole, Haoreima, PolarWafflez, NASAPeepo:, just a reminder that voting in Community Wishlist Survey 2022 starts today at 18:00 UTC. This is 20:00 in my region, don’t forget to check what time it will be in yours. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 09:09, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Voting has started. 🗳🥳✅🤯 Don’t forget to vote for your favorite suggestions. 👍🏻👎🏻-Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 18:06, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, I tried to vote for your proposal but it seems as if it was already archived. I have so far voted for 4 proposals: average edits, graph showing how articles link to each other, chat client, and polls. If you ask me, the chat client is the most useful one. We can have an instant chat room of this talk page, one for the ancient language group, and one user suggested it can be used in wikiversity to actually teach lessons. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 18:27, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Sorry for late reply! Could you give me the link to the page of that particular conversation? :) Haoreima (talk) 13:30, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, sorry but I’m not sure what you mean. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 13:54, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: I mean the place where you were talking to someone about "We can have an instant chat room of this talk page, one for the ancient language group, and one user suggested it can be used in wikiversity to actually teach lessons." which you said. :) Haoreima (talk) 13:56, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, do you mean meta:Community Wishlist Survey 2022/Larger suggestions/Chat client? -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 14:00, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Oh sorry for late reply! As we are talking in multiple places, here in this caption, and other captions of this same page, I forgot this one. Well, yes! I mean this very meta page! :) Haoreima (talk) 07:10, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Writing about diasporas[edit]

Hi @Laʒamon Æft-iboren, Amicus111:, I was just thinking, how would one write about diasporas in Middle English? Since there isn’t an equivalent word in Middle English that I could find in this dictionary. I tried searching in wikitionary, and it’s written there that the word is from Ancient Greek but it’s unclear when it was added to the English language. Do you have any ideas? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 23:13, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Google N-Gram and the corresponding Wikipedia article both indicate they appeared only in the 1800's. this online dictionary entry right here says "late 1700's", but it is unclear what year. This was not the time of Middle English, so i can confirm it did not exist. I dont know, though. ill be thinking. Thank you, AMICVS·III 19:53, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, thank you very much! So the question now is what use to describe that? Should we write “Jews who live out of Israel”, “Ukrainians who live out of Ukraine”, “Russians who live out of Russia”, etc.? I wrote in Modern English grammar and orthography for simplicity, obviously the articles will need to use Middle English. Maybe there’s a Middle English Word that can be used to convey a similar meaning? -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 21:09, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: I don't know of a word that could be used in place of diaspora, i dont see anything wrong with the "Jews who live put of Israel" format though. I honestly do not know what to do. we may need some more opinions from enm WP editors. Thank you, AMICVS·III 11:53, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, it’s not necessary wrong but it’s a bit long for a title in my opinion. The main problem though is how you would start such an article. The main problem though is the content of the article. See from English Wikipedia:

The Ukrainian diaspora is the global community of Ukrainians, especially those who maintain some kind of connection, even if ephemeral, to the land of their ancestors and maintain their feeling of Ukrainian national identity within their own local community. The Ukrainian diaspora is found throughout numerous regions worldwide including other post-Soviet states, Central Europe, and the Americas.

How would we write if the article was “Ukrainians who live out of Ukraine”? That Ukrainians who live out of Ukraine are Ukrainians who live out of Ukraine? Alternatively, we could start describing the description without the first sentence but that would be less encyclopedic.
What do you think? We can wait for other users to reply or Ping other users. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 12:06, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
perhaps "Ukreiniens who liueþ oute Ukreine". Do you think it is correct grammar to omit the of or not? Thank you, AMICVS·III TALK 12:32, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
Also, if we do insert the of we have to cut out the -e at the end because vowels dont go together that way. Thank you, AMICVS·III TALK 12:34, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
No, we would have to omit it both ways actually. Thank you, AMICVS·III TALK 12:39, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, I searched for quotations in Middle English Dictionary, and I think it’s correct. Example from the dictionary: “Stolen ʒhe was out mine couitreie”. The word out both in this quotation and in the sense we need are regarding being out of a country. So it can be Wp/enm/Ukreiniens who liueþ out Ukreine, but I’m at a loss to what the first sentence should be. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 13:12, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
I read somewhere that words that end with consonants should be made in plural with -es not s. So Wp/enm/Ukreinienes who liueþ out Ukreine. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 13:13, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
My source. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 13:15, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

@UgandanSonic375:, what do you think about the proposed title? -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 14:24, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

@Amicus111:, 2 days have passed and still no response from UgandanSonic. I think we can proceed to creating this article. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 16:05, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
Okay. Just letting you know I saw the message. Thank you, AMICVS·III | TALK 16:55, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, you are welcome. Regarding edits like Special:MobileDiff/5326037 where you add | before links, please do test edits in the sandbox. Wp/enm/Wikipaedia:Sandbox. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 17:02, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
Whenever i click the edit button, the | is automatically added before links. why does this happen? Thank you, AMICVS·III | TALK 17:11, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, no I don’t know. This never happened to me. Maybe @1234qwer1234qwer4: can help. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 17:13, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
That is a weird bug I have noticed and experienced myself; maybe this needs a Phabricator ticket, though this seems to be some malfunctioning JavaScript code (MediaWiki:Common.js or gadget), since this does not happen when I add a safemode=1 URL parameter. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 17:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, does this advice help you? -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 13:54, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Importing a template from English Wikipedia[edit]

@Xbspiro:, pinging an importer and test wiki administrator of Wn/hu. Could you please import Template:Main and Template:See also from English Wikipedia to Middle English Wikipedia? Wp/enm/Main, and Wp/enm/See also. Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 07:55, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately these pages are beyond my comprehension. I don't understand Lua (and modules). - Xbspiro (talk) 23:30, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
@Xbspiro:, oh I see. I pinged you because you have importer rights in incubator. Sorry for bothering you. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 13:27, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Update on the proposed chat client[edit]

It has just recently come to my attention that the suggestion for an instant chat client which can be found here which was moved from miscellaneous to larger suggestions is out of scope for the community tech team. This doesn’t mean it has no chances of passing at all. As the page says:

This proposal is a larger suggestion that is out of scope for the Community Tech team. Participants are welcome to vote on it, but please note that regardless of popularity, there is no guarantee this proposal will be implemented. Supporting the idea helps communicate its urgency to the broader movement.

-Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 07:59, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

The word ”broched”[edit]

@Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, I have seen your edit summary:

Adapted text to be more Middle English in character. I couldn't find "broched" in the M.E. Dictionary with a particularly appropriate meaning; I replaced it with "ygraven". I'd like to know what whoever wrote it intended by "broched" and where they found it - I assume they DID look up an M.E. word, as it doesn't look like just a modern word with funny spelling to me.

@Zarzagoa: is the original author of the article and has written this word. Maybe he/she can comment about this. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 13:45, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

A question about DEFAULTSORT[edit]

Hi @1234qwer1234qwer4:, I have recently created the page Wp/enm/Apostle Andrew about Saint Andrew. I have written {{DEFAULTSORT:Apostle Andrew}}. Is it correct or should it be {{DEFAULTSORT:Andrew, Apostle}}? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 13:56, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

I would say the latter, since that is what is usually done with similar titles like "Saint". I see that enwiki sort of dodges this by calling the article w:Andrew the Apostle. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 17:07, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, I also think it’s better that way. I saw the English article, but when I checked Middle English quotes they wrote Apostle <name> that’s why I wrote it like that. Will change the DEFAULTSORT to how you recommended because not all of them have names that begin with an a. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 17:11, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Featured articles[edit]

@Amicus111, Laʒamon Æft-iboren, 1234qwer1234qwer4, PolarWafflez5327, ScienceFan66:, what do you think about the idea of having featured articles in Middle English Wikipedia? Sort of like there are featured books in English Wikibooks. In order to become featured, an article will have to be both in correct Middle English, and informative. It will be possible to submit requests by creating a new thread on this talk page, or maybe we will make a special page for processing requests. There will be a list of featured articles maintained in the main page, every featured article will have a template telling that it’s featured, and it will be possible to submit requests to add and to remove featured articles. Thoughts and opinions? -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 16:22, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Support: I believe that this will be helpful and attract more editors to the wiki. The featured pages will probably need to be semi-protected to prevent vandalism. ScienceFan66 (talk) 21:33, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
@ScienceFan66:, sorry I have missed your message. I agree they need to be semi-protected but maybe letting only registered users edit will be enough. We can also let only registered users will at least 10 edits and 4 days edit. Because no objections were raised I think we can go ahead and do that, but for semi-protecting I will need to be a test wiki admin. I can try to submit a request. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 15:53, 5 February 2022 (UTC)


@BryanAJParry, Wikitiki89, IINAG, JamesR1701E, Jade Knight, AlmightyTim, Ted-m, Gray Porpoise, Qmwne235, Blackkdark: pinging users who participated in thread 1.
I have read that particular thread from long ago, from back when Middle English Wikipedia was much smaller and it had some interesting ideas in it (you can go forward and read it yourself if you want). Generally the consensus seemed to be that we should use multiple dialects which is in fact what we do around here. Currently the wiki has CDLXXIII (473) (Roman numerals are now required for small numbers) articles so I think unifying to one dialect would be tedious and pointless. I think we should embrace the diversity of dialects. One comment that stood out was to write what dialect it is in the title page. We can do this using a template, but I believe we should instead put a few featured articles from each dialect in the main page. Another user expressed that he thinks we should stay away from Early Middle English which is interesting since this seems to be the direction the wiki is stirring towards, with an Early Middle English grammar guide linked in the spelling and grammar page. Also, if you are still active, it would be really interesting to see what the original editors of Middle English Wikipedia think of its development. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 16:43, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Always Middle English[edit]

ſhoulde nat we ſpeke in þe middel engliſshe langage on þe talke pagines? þis ywrit nis newe engliſshe, und hit is ymede for pepel who ne spekeþ þe newe engliſshe. Thank you, AMICVS·III | TALK 18:23, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

@Amicus111:, I think we speak here in New English for convenience. I doubt anybody speaks Middle English but not New English, however many people speak New English but new Middle English, and their input can also be valuable. I feel communicating in Middle English can be very nice training though and will cause users to write the articles in better Middle English however it will also deter others from giving their valuable comments. Note that also users in Latin Wikipedia communicate in New English. I think we should make it so that we can open threads in Modern English or in Middle English. If we choose the second, the thread title will end with enm. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 18:36, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, I hope you are not distressed that I revered your edit where you added tne title ==Always Middle English. The bug with the | happened again in this one, and it was far easier to revert the edit and then add the title in another edit then to search for all the effected areas and fix every one of them. Hope you understand. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 20:16, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Thank you for the answer. Thank you, AMICVS·III | TALK 23:17, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Template:Wp/enm/Mayne Page[edit]

@LittleWhole:, since you are knowledgeable in templates, could you please make Template:Wp/enm/Mayne Page that will work like Template:Main in English Wikipedia? Thanks in advance, -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 16:44, 7 February 2022 (UTC)


@1234qwer1234qwer4, Amicus111, Laʒamon Æft-iboren, Haoreima, Nevergonnagiveyou, GoodClover, Anton Kazmyarchuk, ScienceFan66:, articles about English speaking countries mention that the language they speak is New English, however this convention in Middle English Wikipedia only works for the English language. There’s no mention of New Spanish, New German, New Ukrainian, New Russian, etc. Only New English. Do you think that it should stay that way or change? Thanks in advance, -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 12:36, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

@Gifnk dlm 2020: By just saying "English", people usually refer to "Modern English" (New English). What people pay interest in is about the varieties of Modern English (or just simply "English"), like British English, American English, etc. Same for Portuguese, Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese, and so on. So, I think it's futile to say "New English". Haoreima (talk) 12:48, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, the point in writing “New English” is that in my opinion it can’t be just presumed because it’s written in Middle English. Also the article about English discusses all 3 forms with each one having its own article. It’s the inconsistency between languages that bothers me. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 13:13, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Template:Main Page and See also[edit]

@Sotiale:, pinging an importer. Could you please import Template:Main] from English Wikipedia to Template:Wp/enm/Mayne Page and Template:See also also for English Wikipedia to Wp/enm/See also]? Thanks in advance, -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 12:43, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks for pinging me, but I recommend posting this to AN. --Sotiale (talk) 12:26, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
@Sotiale:, thank you very much! Will do. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 14:02, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
@Sotiale:, I posted this to Incubator:Administrators' noticeboard but have not got a reply. What to do? -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 14:09, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Village pump[edit]

I suggest creating a village pump in Middle English Wikipedia like there’s in Latin, and English Wikipedia. Actually more similar to Latin Wikipedia. It will be allowed to communicate in both Middle & Modern English, will have an archive for discussions. All discussions started before the creation of the village pump will be completed here and this page won’t have an archive but will be protected at some point with a message “please use the village pump”. This is per suggestion of @Haoreima: in my talk page. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 13:19, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

@Haoreima:, I think one of the problems in doing this is the fact that theoretically Middle English Wikipedia can be deleted at any given time, therefore users think that the main talk page is good enough. Regardless there are some things that need to be discussed before we can create a village pump including how it will look like and how the archives will work. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 15:00, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: If everything for enm can be deleted anytime, beware to store the information (which you want to preserve) as soon as possible somewhere safe. :) Haoreima (talk) 15:03, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, I have plans for making an archive of Middle English Wikipedia on ipfs. I outlined the plan in the thread “Preserving Middle English Wikipedia dumps”. Do you have a plan for Wp/omp? -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 17:09, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Yes, I too have a plan. :-) Haoreima (talk) 17:39, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, good to hear. I forgot to mention in the comment above that I’m trying to get to 500 articles - something Middle English Wikipedia is close to. Have you started work on Meitei Wikisource and Ancient Meitei Wikisource? -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 17:42, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Not yet. Presently, I am developing masses of articles, expanding already created ones as well as creating new ones in both Meitei and Simple English. So, I can't spare time to develop new projects. And to do that, I have none to help me as of now. So, I will do that only after a bunch of articles (which I planned) is completely ok (expanded/created). Once I told you that only after Meitei Wikipedia reached 10,000 articles of content, I will do this and that. But unfortunately, I couldn't because tasks are vast but number of editors (who could do for mni) are less. Many Meitei editors scattered over English Wikipedia. And as you know, since I couldn't go there, I am unable to contact them (because most of them don't enable email) to recruit for Meitei wiki project contributions. :-) Haoreima (talk) 02:41, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, I see. Good luck with that! You can try contacting them via their talk pages in another wiki. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 12:23, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Is there any benefit in not staying here? 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 13:13, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, I don’t think there is other than being similar to other wikis that have a village pump. Maybe if Middle English Wikipedia gets verified as eligible I think maybe it will be worth it but for now it’s better IMO to use this page. @Haoreima: left this in my talk page so I just thought I would leave it here to give other users a chance to express there opinions. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 13:24, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: IMO, if none opposed, just create it. "Now is the best time"! Why wait for tomorrow! Haoreima (talk) 13:27, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, even though I definitely like the idea that would need creating an archive, etc. when this main talk page doesn’t need those stuff. Just curious, did you create the village pump in Meitei Wikipedia during incubation or after? -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 13:31, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: I created the village pump/community portal already in the incubator stage for Meitei Wikipedia. Haoreima (talk) 13:33, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, interesting. How was it? Did it start out as just a regular page and did you create the archives later or did you create them right away? Are the archives by years/moths or archive 1 archive 2, etc.? -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 13:36, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
This talk page can have an archive too (like any other talk page). 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 13:38, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, yes it can but I like the huge ease editors can see old discussions and even reply to them something that would be lost if there was an archive. What I meant to say is that thought a talk page can have an archive but a village pump must have. Apparently I was wrong. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 13:55, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020, 1234qwer1234qwer4: I don't archive any discussion. Actually, I don't archive my own talk pages in all the WMF projects too. Well, about the frequency of the discussions, I think it's moderate. Because for Meitei wiki, I (personally) used to discuss most of the things in other editors' talk pages. They did the same to me. Well, if all these were done in the very village pump, it won't be less than English Wikipedia village pump regarding frequency of discussions. Haoreima (talk) 13:45, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, oh I see. I thought a village pump must have an archive. Could you please check it’s size in bytes? Thanks in advance, -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 13:57, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
Can't say that is the best practice, but it obviously only makes sense when a talk page becomes large. Archiving is more convenient for future users than deleting messages in that case. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 14:00, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: IMO, it doesn't need to reach certain number of bytes. There's no such minimum or maximum amount. The page that serves as everyone's meeting point, everyone's talking place is what some refer to "village pump", "Community portal", "Simple Talk" (in Wikipedia), "Travellers' Pub" (in wikivoyage), etc. Archiving is one's choice. It's neither mandatory nor unnecessary. Haoreima (talk) 14:05, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4: I know! I don't ask for deletion yet. Neither I promote archiving nor I support removal/deletion of the discussions! Haoreima (talk) 14:05, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima: of course there’s no need to try to reach a certain number of bytes just curious to know how much activity it gets. I know most comments are left in talk pages of users. @1234qwer1234qwer4:, indeed archiving is much more convenient then deletion. But I think at least as of now, Middle English Wikipedia can go on with neither. 📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 14:13, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Voting templates[edit]

I have made voting templates:

  1. Template:Wp/enm/Oppose Oppose
  2. Template:Wp/enm/Neutral Neutral
  3. Template:Wp/enm/Support Support
  4. Template:Wp/enm/Strong Support Strong support

I hav used subst so that if we have a discussion about changing how they look and it becomes successful, that it will be seem how it looked like before the change.
@Amicus111:, do you think it’s ok the templates are in Modern English because the discussions also take place in Modern English or should they be translated to Middle English? -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 17:59, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

@Gifnk dlm 2020:, Þe article tags are written in Middle en, and the templates really aren't different. So yes, þere is an inconsistency. Yes. Þancie þe, AMICVS·III | TALK 12:50, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, what do you mean by “article tags”? I made the voting templates in Modern English because the discussions take place in that language. I asked do you think they should be translated to Middle English? -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 13:06, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Voting ended[edit]

Update: Voting on the Community Wishlist Survey has concluded. Result will be published on February 14. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 22:54, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Creating a bot[edit]

Hi @1234qwer1234qwer4:, where is it possible to learn how to create a wikimedia bot? I would like to create one that will check Special:WhatLinksHere of redirect pages in the incubator to see if any pages redirect to redirect pages, and correct where necessary. Thanks in advance, -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 14:38, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Special:DoubleRedirects already shows the information for the whole Incubator. Fixing double redirects has some standard bot code in multiple frameworks, but if done by a bot, I think it's best if it is done on the whole project and by somebody already running similar routine cleanup tasks elsewhere (many bots are fixing errors like this on multiple wikis). 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 13:23, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, I didn’t know that. Thank you very much! Also searched enm and surprised to see there are none in Middle English Wikipedia. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 13:27, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Why was Middle English Wikipedia removed from Incubator:Featured wikis?[edit]

I notice Middle English Wikipedia was featured on the main page of the incubator for quite some time, but now I was removed not long ago. Just now I understood how it works with the page Incubator:Featured wikis bing manually updated. I’m curious to know why was it removed from that page? @MF-Warburg: pinging the administrator who removed it. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 14:46, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Corrected the ping above, and I know ping only works in signed edits. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 18:15, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Africa or Aufrike?[edit]

@Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, I see that in the page Wp/enm/Papioun (chetah) you spelled Africa as Aufrike. Do you think Wp/enm/Africa should be moved to Wp/enm/Aufrike? This can be done using Special:MovePage. Thanks in advance, -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 15:03, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Gifnk dlm 2020, thanks for reading the page! I would say that spellings of proper nouns, especially for well-known names and those that have different spellings in different modern languages, like Africa, should be O.K. to vary a bit in Middle English here on this Wiki like is done with the normal M.E. words. So it could be moved to a page using an attested M.E. spelling of Africa, such as Affrike, Aufrike, or Affryk, but it isn't critical. But for some proper nouns, the exact spelling might be important, e.g. trademarked names, so in those cases it's probably best to keep to consistent spellings.
There is another issue, though, regarding Africa, which is how to deal with the fact that M.E. seemingly didn't have a word for the whole continent of Africa, and the word "Africa" in the middle ages (however spelt) typically referred only to north Africa. I think we can get away with using the word in its modern sense in this case, but these kinds of changes in meaning of words that were in M.E. and still exist in present-day English can make it quite tricky to decide how to translate, sometimes.
Thanks for showing me how to move pages, as I wasn't aware how to do that. I'll try and reply to your other questions/comments soon! Laʒamon Æft-iboren (talk) 20:38, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
@Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, thank you very much! One solution to the problem is to say “African Continent” (in Middle English orthography of course) but I think Africa (or one of the spellings) would work. Didn’t they typically refer to North Africa because this was the part of Africa they knew the most of & therefore wrote more about? -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 20:44, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Writing a book in English Wikibooks[edit]

@Amicus111, Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, what do you think about the idea of creating a book in a (modern) English Wikibooks to teach people Middle English? There is a book about Old English, but not Middle English. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 19:07, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

I þink it is an excellent idea, it is a useful skill to learn. i could contribute a bit to þat. Þancie þe, AMICVS·III | TALK 19:23, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, it’s possible to link to this book in the list of resources. I can create a book called Middle English. Also, there’s a shelf called Shelf:Hello, Jonathan!. We can produce a Middle English translation. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 20:07, 12 February 2022 (UTC)


Hi @1234qwer1234qwer4:, I recently created the articles Wp/enm/Seint Valentyn (DEFAULTSORT:Valentyn, Seint), and Wp/enm/Day of Seint Valentyn (DEFAULTSORT:Day of Seint Valentyn). Do you think I did the DEFAULTSORT correctly? I’m mostly worried about the second one. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 13:09, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

I also created Wp/enm/Day of Seint Andrew (DEFAULTSORT:Day of Seint Andrew). Is this the correct DEFAULTSORT? -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 13:33, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, you may have missed the ping. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 18:08, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
Should be fine; splitting up the title into parts and applying the sorting based on that would only make the navigation more counterintuitive. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 20:37, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, what do you mean? Is it ok that the articles about Valentines St Andrews day are both listed with the letter D? -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 20:47, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
Probably, though you can set an additional sortkey for a holiday category if that is created. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 03:54, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4:, thank you very much! I think there are enough articles to justify a holiday category. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 06:20, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Concern about Roman Numerals[edit]

An annonymous IP address left this message in Talk:Wp/enm/Wikipaedia:Use Roman numerals:

What about Imaginary Numbers? Negative Numbers? Zero? -- 13:42, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Wp/enm/Wikipaedia:Use Roman numerals says:

When possible, please use Roman numerals in this wiki. In some cases (for example equations), it’s impossible. If you see Arabic numerals in this wiki, they were probably written before the community decided to only use Roman numerals, so please replace them with Roman ones. If you see a new user using Arabic numerals, replace them with Roman ones and ping the user asking him to use Roman numerals in the future.

We can also add imaginary numbers, negative numbers, and zero to the list of exceptions. Notice that very large numbers (more than 5 million) are written as Arabic numerals. Currently the wiki doesn’t describe imaginary numbers but I agree that it should. Maybe other users have different takes on this topic. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 14:06, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Based on the concerns of special:Contributions/, maybe we will make articles about mathematics 🧮 completely exempt from the Roman numerals rule? @Amicus111, Haoreima, 1234qwer1234qwer4, Laʒamon Æft-iboren, ScienceFan66:, what do you think? -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 14:18, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
Since no objections were raised I added the following paragraph to the policy page:

Articles about Mathematics are exempt from this rule. They are allowed to use Arabic Numerals but they can also use Roman ones if practical and determined by discussion to be desirable.

Arabic numerals were introduced to England when Middle English was still spoken + Old English Wikipedia uses Arabic Numerals. -📜GIFNK📚DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK⌚️📱⌨️🖥🖨🕹💽💾💿📀📸📹🎥📽🎞📠📺📻📡🔋CONTRIBS) 12:54, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Milestone - 500 articles[edit]

I created a new thread when Middle English Wikipedia reached 200 articles but not other round numbers like 300 or 400 and that was probably a mistake. Anyways, Middle English Wikipedia has just reached 500 articles. 🥳🎊🎉🎁🎇 -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 16:36, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Milestone - all 50 states[edit]

Middle English Wikipedia now has articles about all 50 states in the Wp/enm/United States, and also the capital cities and biggest cities of each and every state. 🎇 -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 20:08, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Fifth request[edit]

@Gifnk dlm 2020, Amicus111, Haoreima, Laʒamon Æft-iboren, 1234qwer1234qwer4, Liuxinyu970226, Hasley, Kwamikagami, ScienceFan66, Sotiale, Xbspiro:, pinging all users who contributed in the month of February 2022 so far (the month isn’t over yet).
Since Middle English Wikipedia has grown significantly since the fourth request was rejected, I decided to submit a fifth one. You can see it here and express your opinions. I won’t say sign your support since another user told me it’s canvassing. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 15:30, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@Gifnk dlm 2020, Amicus111, Haoreima, Laʒamon Æft-iboren, 1234qwer1234qwer4, Liuxinyu970226, Hasley, Kwamikagami, ScienceFan66, Sotiale, Xbspiro:, I hate pinging a lot, but if you pressed the link and saw that it’s invalid, it’s because of a typo I made. Fixed it and the link should work now. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 20:23, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Community Wishlist Survey 2022 Results[edit]

The results were published. You can see them here. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 16:06, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Note to editors on WPENM[edit]

Juſt a note to all editors on þe middle engliſh wikipedia, in þe "See alsō" page þere ſhould be a ſpacing between l and s on also, becauſe in middle engliſh also meant All So, as in with all that said [...]. I þink i ſhould note þat i will uſe enm characters when talking in modern en to practice ſpeed. Thank you or Þancie þe, AMICVS·III | TALK 16:27, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

@Amicus111:, I have changed also to al so in Wp/enm/E.Z. Way and Wp/enm/Wurm as well. -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 19:57, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Lost media[edit]

@Amicus, Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, do you think Wp/enm/Luste Media is a good way to write in Middle English lost media? Thanks in advance, -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 16:15, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

@Amicus111:, sorry pinged wrong user.😅 -📜GIFNK📖DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 05:27, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
I believe it is, but I have done some minor changes to the article to keep the dialect consistent. Also, may I ask, you and Laʒamon Æft-iboren if we should move the page to Iluste media instead of Luste media because of the prefix -i which turns a past-tense verb into an adjective meaning that it has already happened? Þancie þe, AMICVS·III | TALK 20:54, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: sorry, forgot the ping. Þancie þe, AMICVS·III | TALK 20:57, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, I think it’s a good idea though we can wait for a response from @Laʒamon Æft-iboren:. -12:28, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

@Amicus111:, I think we can move the pages. What do you think? If objections are raised by @Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, we can always move them back. -Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123 (talk) 10:45, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

You're right. I'll go ahead and move it now. Thanks, 𝑨𝒎𝒊𝒄𝒖𝒔 (𝐭𝐚𝐥𝐤) 23:48, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

@Amicus111: I have corrected the titles of the categories as well. It’s now Category:Wp/enm/Iluste Media and Category:Wp/enm/Iluste Films. Categories can be moved like regular pages using Special:MovePage, juts make sure to update to the new category name in all the pages of the category you wish to move. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 07:59, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

@Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123 I agree that having the i- prefix is preferable here, but maybe spelling it with y would be better - just because capital l and lower case I look basically identical in Wikipedia's main-text font?
Also, I can't find the word spelt luste with a "u" - it's consistently an "o" used with the past participle of losen; whereas the verb lesen, which has pretty much the same meaning, has past tense with "u", but past participle (i)lorn with "o".
I suppose it's O.K. to use the non-M.E. word "media", seeing as it here specifically refers to modern things with no proper equivalent in the Middle Ages. -Laʒamon Æft-iboren (talk) 19:51, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
@Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, thank you very much! Back when I created the article I didn’t find an word for “lost”. Just to make sure I understand you correctly, do you suggest to change it to Ylorn Media? -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 20:19, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
@Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123: Ylorn Media would be good, yeah. -Laʒamon Æft-iboren (talk) 20:28, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
@Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, I changed it to “Ylorn Media” in the articles and the categories. Thank you very much! -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 07:37, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Creating articles about diasporas[edit]

@Amicus111:, in an above thread we discussed what the title of an article about the Ukrainian Diaspora should be. Even though we can go ahead and create the article, I kinda don’t want to do that without an equivalent to Template:Main in English Wikipedia. I asked to import the template but didn’t get a reply. We can create the template ourselves. What do you think? -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 19:17, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

@Gifnk dlm 2020: I agree.
Þancie þe, AMICVS·III | TALK 21:42, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111: agree with what? That we should create the template ourselves? -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 07:52, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
Im very sorry. I think we could make the template ourselves, I meant. Also, we could begin on the article in a sandbox like one of our userspaces. Þancie þe, AMICVS·III | TALK 11:47, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, sorry I missed your message. Yes, we can create the template ourselves. Also I don’t think there’s a need to start the article in one of our userspaces - we can create it in Wp/enm right away. -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 12:43, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
I started work on Wp/enm/Ukrainianes who liueþ out Ukraine though it’s still in draft stages. I see that in English Wikipedia, they use Template:Legend. I think we can create that here as well. Btw, if you copy content from a wiki, don’t forget to attribute by putting the link to the current revision. -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 13:23, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
I just made Wp/enm/Ukreinienes who liueþ oute Ukrein. sorry, i don't know how to get the page removed. Þancie þe, AMICVS·III | TALK 13:32, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, not to worry. It’s possible to add the content you created to Wp/enm/Ukrainianes who liueþ out Ukraine and to turn Wp/enm/Ukreinienes who liueþ oute Ukrein to a redirect. -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 13:38, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
Btw, you wrote:

Þe Ukreinenes who liueþ oute Ukreine ar natiue Ukreinenes hwo chaunge tō dissemblable contrees.

I’m curious to know what does “dissemblable” mean? -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 13:40, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
Of course, dissembable means different. It came from Norman French speakers. Þancie þe, AMICVS·III | TALK 14:36, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, thank you very! -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 14:46, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I created Russian invasion of Ukraine due to Mid English Wikipedia articles about Ukraine fill[edit]

Here’s the page Upgrading soon! 13:26, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

@, sorry I missed your message. Thank you very much for your contributions! It’s highly desirable that you create an account as it will make collaboration easier, and also please add new pages that you create to the main category. Category:Wp/enm -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 16:47, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Oblasts in Ukraine[edit]

@Amicus111, Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, there are currently two articles about oblasts in Ukraine. Wp/enm/Donetsk Oblast and Wp/enm/Kyiv Oblast. Since I couldn’t find a Middle English Alternative to administrative center, I wrote “capital”. Do you think that works? Also, do you think we should create Template:Wp/enm/Ukrainian Oblast similar to Template:Wp/enm/Contree? -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 16:44, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

@Amicus111, Laʒamon Æft-iboren: I created Template:Wp/enm/Ukrainian Oblast and used it in Wp/enm/Kyiv Oblast and Wp/enm/Donetsk Oblast. What do you think about the use of the word “capital” instead of “administrative center”. Is there another Middle English alternative to “administrative center”? Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 17:38, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, you may have missed the ping. What do you think about the use of the word “capital” when Modern English Wikipedia uses “administrative center”? -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 18:46, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
I don't think your proposal will work, as "Capital" does not mean "administrative center". People are not going to know that it means "administrative center". I don't know though. Þancie þe, AMICVS·III | TALK 21:53, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, Middle English dictionary doesn’t have a result for “administrate” but I found the word reuling(e) which means:

(a) Government, jurisdiction, control; charge, direction; haven ~ of, to be in charge of (sb. or sth.); (b) in Bibl. transl.: ben biforen in ~ to, to be in charge of (sb. or sth.), superintend; right ~ [see right-reuling ger.]; (c) med. preservation (of health); medical regimen; (d) a judgment, decision; (e) ?bearing, demeanor.

Maybe “Reuling Centre” is similar to “Administrative center”? -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 09:52, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
@Gifnk dlm 2020: Yes, I could not find a better solution, I think reulinge centre is fine. Þancie þe, AMICVS·III | TALK 12:24, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, ok. Thank you very much! I will change it to “reulinge centre”. -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 13:41, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
@Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123 Reulinge is good, but I'm not sure centre is. Maybe sete ("seat", as in the seat of government), or just cite.
Also, capital on its own as a noun is not recorded as meaning a capital city, so best to use the full capital cite or alternatively chef cite or heved cite/burgh. -Laʒamon Æft-iboren (talk) 19:07, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
@Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, thank you very much! I changed it to “Reulinge Cite” in (hopefully) all the articles and in Template:Wp/enm/Ukrainian Oblast. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 20:31, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

A question about xml dumps[edit]

Hi @TheDragonFire300:, since you created an xml dump of Middle English Wikipedia, I wonder, do you know the answer to the following question: is it possible to make a dump which included redirect pages in a way easier than manually adding all redirect pages to Category:Wp/enm/Rē̆dī̆recten pāǧes? Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 15:18, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Never mind, I managed to get the answer to that question. -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 19:53, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Should Wp/enm/Human be in Category:Wp/enm/Beestes[edit]

@Amicus111, Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, I realize biologists classify humans as animals, but generally it’s convenient to separate between humans and non-human animals. Maybe the article Wp/enm/Human should be only in Category:Wp/enm/Peeple and not in Category:Wp/enm/Beestes? -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 20:43, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

@Gifnk dlm 2020: I agree. Humans should be in Category:Wp/enm/Beestes and Peeple should nor be in Beestes.
The Human article should be about the physical, biological aspect of us, while Person should focus on the more abstract features that make a human a part of society, such as rights, consciousness, et cetera. Þancie þe, AMICVS·III | TALK 22:04, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, makes sense. Thank you very much for the insight! -🇺🇦GIFNK🇺🇦DLM🇺🇦MMXX🇺🇦SLAVA🇺🇦UKRAINI🇺🇦(TALK)🇺🇦 15:49, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Changed username[edit]

Hi, I would like to inform you that I have changed username. My previous account was User:Gifnk dlm 2020. This is not a sock puppet of Gifnk dlm 2020, this is a new account intended to replace it. -Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123 (talk) 12:34, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Please, in the next time, use Special:GlobalRenameRequest, do not directly create a new account (unless if you're really "Cleanstarting"). Note that in the cleanstart case, Do not use your new account to return to topic areas, disputes, editing patterns, or behaviors previously identified as problematic, and you should be careful not to do anything that looks like an attempt to evade scrutiny. A clean start requires that you no longer use your old account(s), which should note on their user pages that they are inactive—for example, with the Template:Retired tag—to prevent the switch being seen as an attempt to sockpuppet. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:33, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
@Liuxinyu970226: That comment is pretty ridiculous to me. Firstly, you are trying to apply Wikipedia policies globally. Secondly, there is no suggestion of malice shown by the user - at worst the user is classifying a username change as having a legitimate alternate account which looks innocuous to me. If this disclosure was not done, you would have a point. Leaderboard (talk) 09:30, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
The same principle applies, using alternative accounts without fair reasons are just considered sockpuppets, even the owner don't recognize it. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 09:33, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
@Leaderboard, Liuxinyu970226:, I specified in the user page of both the previous account and this one, and since I only have one user page on meta, it’s the global userpage. I can add Template:Retired to User:Gifnk dlm 2020 in meta but I don’t have enough edits on this wiki and therefore can’t edit userpages of other users. -Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123 (talk) 10:25, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
No need here, just modify it on Meta, since both are global userpages. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:34, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
@Liuxinyu970226:, ok I will do that. -Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123 (talk) 18:01, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
I have modified the user page at meta. Is it ok now? -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 18:15, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
If you promise that you will absolutely no longer make any edits or actions by your old account, and get rid of re-doing wrong behaviors on pages that account did (e.g. I:RFD#Wp/enm), fine. This however also means that you should strike your second "vote keep" where I focused on it. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:16, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
@Liuxinyu970226:, I left a comment in the Request for deletion that I have already voted using my old account. I won’t do any more edits using my old account unless I’m told I need to modify its user page again for some reason. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 11:54, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

adding Template:Expand english[edit]

I'm adding the template for Template:expand language, sorry if this is screwing anything up, I'm a new editor!-- 15:54, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

@, I have seen your edits. Sorry, I’m not sure what Template:Expand language is for. Also please leave comments in the main talk page (here) for visibility. P.s. it’s highly desirable that you create an account as it will make collaboration a lot easier. -Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123 (talk) 18:03, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Lucian or Lvcian?[edit]

@Laʒamon Æft-iboren, Amicus111:, I have created a new article Wp/enm/Lucian of Samosata which I plan to expand. I noticed that in the Latin translation they wrote LVCIAN. Do you think the article name should be Lucian or Lvcian? Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 11:43, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

It really can be either of the two; in Latin, there is no U char., and in Middle English, u and v were interchangeable. So whatever you like. Thanks, 𝑨𝒎𝒊𝒄𝒖𝒔 (𝐭𝐚𝐥𝐤) 14:55, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, I see. Thank you very much! If the letters are interchangeable, is it ok to move the page to Wp/enm/Lvcian of Samosata just because it’s different from the Modern English spelling? -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 15:53, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
Yes, good thinking: searches would likely use the "u" so it'd be good to make a redirect. i didn't think of that… Thanks, 𝑨𝒎𝒊𝒄𝒖𝒔 (𝐭𝐚𝐥𝐤) 21:04, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, I have changed the page title to Lvcian of Samosata using Special:MovePage which leaves a redirect behind. Thank you very much! -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 21:33, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Writing “deported” in Middle English[edit]

Hi @Amicus111, Laʒamon Æft-iboren, Katryn Khoroszov:, I have recently created a new article Wp/enm/Crimean Tatars:

Crimean Tatars are a Turkic eþnic group natif to Crimea, a half islond in Ukraine. Þe U.S.S.R. banysched and exiled þem to Central Asia.

What do you think about the of “banysched and exiled” with the meaning of “deported”? I used it because of the Middle English dictionary entry banishen which also has the following quote:

Somme of hem were slayn..and somme y-banysched and exiled and putt out of lond.

Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 14:50, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Sounds good; the meaning of deported is quite similar to that of exiled, so it works. Katryn Khoroszov (talk) 07:19, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Spelling of February[edit]

Hi @Amicus111, Laʒamon Æft-iboren, Katryn Khoroszov:, I have created an article about the month February Wp/enm/Feuerʒere. For whatever reason, Middle English dictionary has 2 results if you search for the term February. feveryē̆r, and febrūārīe. Each one has alternative spellings, I chose a spelling of the first one from the following quote:

(1343) Cart.Whitby in Sur.Soc.69230 : Gyfuen at Ʒork, the third Day of Feuerʒere.

If you think it’s ok to use this spelling for the article about February, i will create redirect pages from the other spellings, otherwise it’s possible to change the title of the page using Special:MovePage
Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 11:28, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

New page for online resources[edit]

Hi @Katryn Khoroszov, Amicus111, Laʒamon Æft-iboren, Haoreima:, currently there’s a list of online resources in Wp/enm/Wikipaedia:Spelling and grammar. I suggest to move it to a separate page and call it “Wp/enm/Wikipaedia:Online resources about Middle English” or something like that. What do you think? -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 06:26, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I think that former name suits better. Haoreima (talk) 11:44, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:? What do you mean? I didn’t suggest to move the entire page, only the last section with a list of online resources to a separate page. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 14:00, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Oh it's my confusion! I thought you are about to move the page name! It's my wrong assumption! Haoreima (talk) 14:05, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, I see. Thanks for clarifying! -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 17:12, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Test wiki deletion[edit]

Hi @Katryn Khoroszov, Amicus111, Laʒamon Æft-iboren, Haoreima:, in Incubator:Requests for deletions/Requests there’s a suggestion to deleted Middle English Wikipedia on or after June 1 by @MF-Warburg:. The time is to let the test wiki contributors (us) to save our work somewhere else. I will create an xml dump of all the pages including the talk pages, redirects, etc. which can be imported to another wiki if you want to. The xml dump is also readable in notepad though notepad++ is better. If you really want to add something then now is the time. As of writing this message the wiki has 574 articles. I plan to upload the dump together with previous dumps to ipfs, though if you have better suggestions I’m open to hearing them. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 11:01, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

COMMENT: I would like to finish the list Wp/enm/Hero Cite of Ukraine. If there’s something you would like to finish, please do so WELL BEFORE the due deletion date so that it will be included in the xml dump. Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 11:37, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
Oh dear. Would there be any way to work on the Middle English Wiki after the June 1st deletion date? Katryn Khoroszov (talk) 17:11, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
@Katryn Khoroszov:, I will create an xml dump before the deletion which can be imported to any wiki that is powered by MediaWiki software. I understand there are websites like incubator plus (I haven’t researched deeply) that exist for such wikis. This is the link to incubator plus. Incubator plus is for test wikis rejected from wikimedia and works like the incubator with the prefix (Wp/enm) system. From what I understand the only difference is that it’s not hosted by wikimedia. Of course, I would much rather Middle English Wikipedia stays in the incubator (or gets a subdomain enm.wikipedia) and there have been debates for well over a year. I think we should keep up with the good statistics for the last month of this wikis presence on incubator, then I will be sure to share the dump so that it will be imported to incubator plus or to a similar website. Another, more costly way, would be to start a new wiki website (Starting and Running a Wiki Website), but I think incubator plus may be the way to go since it uses the same prefix system and can draw images from Wikimedia Commons. Not sure if I will continue contributing in incubator plus but I will for sure send the dump. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 19:59, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
I wish all the works are saved at a safe place. Incubator plus is my suggestion. Haoreima (talk) 11:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, the works will be saved in a safe place. I will create an xml dump which will include all the pages, all te revisions, and upload it together with previous dumps in a folder to IPFS. I chose IPFS since that way people will be able to pin the files on their computers and help keep it online. The works will be in safe space. The xml dump can be imported to any other wiki and incubator plus seems to be the best option. Thank you very much for the comment! Do you have a plan for Wp/omp? -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 13:58, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
As of now, I focus my full attention only to the development of Modern Meitei language (mni). See! Yesterday, it's approved by Google Translate & within a week, it's global rolling will be complete. I mean after one week, Meitei translation will be accessible to anyone in any part of the world through GT. So, I have little time to do for Ancient Meitei language (omp). Haoreima (talk) 14:03, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, I see. Good luck! I’m sure Ancient Meitei Wikipedia was preserved since xml dumps of the entire incubator are made every 14 days and from what I understand editing was disabled in Wp/omp. However there’s one edit from 28 April 2022 by @Jon Harald Søby:, so it seems it was enabled again. I understand you are busy but I think it’s worth checking. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 17:10, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
User:Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123 I checked it. There's no change. Only editing on existing articles is allowed. Creation of new articles is blocked. So, the project is useless. Like Ancient Greek & Middle English, I want my omp project to be grandfathered simultaneously because omp has more article contents than enm. By saying so, I am not comparing but I am showing its importance and worthiness. Btw, as of now, I will focus on modern Meitei. --Haoreima (talk) 16:28, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

@Haoreima:, has Meitei been added to Google translate? Also, do you plan on moving Wp/omp to incubator plus? I think this is the best option for you since the ability to create new pages in this test wiki in incubator.wikimedia was blocked. However, if you can get a sizeable community editing it in incubator.miraheze you might manage to convince langcom that it’s useful. I doubt the same will be possible with Middle English Wikipedia. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 16:05, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

User:Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123 I have already told you that Meitei language is supported by Google Translate, in two times, one in your former user talk page and another in this same page's same thread. I have no plan to move omp to incubator plus because I don't have any knowledge of how incubator plus is operated. Convincing langcom is useless because ancient languages aren't allowed is the policy. Until the policy is amended, we can't convince anyone. --Haoreima (talk) 16:33, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
@Haoreima:, I see. incubator plus works basically the same that incubator.wikimedia only that it’s hosted by miraheze and not by the Wikimedia foundation. From my understanding, it was founded especially for rejected wikis to save them for deletion but I think it’s allowed to create entirely new test wikis in incubator plus (not sure about the last one though). Some example test wikis: American Finnish Wikipedia (desktop), Proto Finnic Wikipedia (desktop). If you would like to continue working on Ancient Meitei Wikipedia I feel like this is the only way to do so. IMO, it would be worth it to check out incubator plus. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 16:53, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

A question about links[edit]

Hi @Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, I have noticed in your editing patterns, including on the main page, that when you create links, you use different spellings for the text and link. Since the wiki will get deleted on June (don’t worry I will create a dump and share it, the dump can be imported to any mediawiki wiki if you want to, see the thread above). Anyways, I’m curious to know what’s the reason for that. I get it if the page exists but it seems to be also for red links. I, not judging just interested, and thought now is as good a time as any to ask. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 11:31, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Incubator plus[edit]

@Katryn Khoroszov:, since you were interested in this, I checked out incubator plus, and it works exactly like incubator. There was a discussion where someone asked what’s the advantage of incubator plus if anyone can get a subdomain in miraheze and not have to work with the prefix (Wp/enm) system. Another user explained that inactive wikis in miraheze get deleted and that this isn’t the case in incubator plus. I suggest you to create an account in miraheze (from what I understand it’s similar to mediawiki in that you have one account for all miraheze hosted wikis, and they also have a Special:CentralAuth.
I checked out the statistics of incubator plus and it seems they only have 905 content pages and 3,628 pages in total (including user pages, categories, talk pages, etc.). Middle English Wikipedia has 576 content pages and 1060 pages in total. If it gets imported to incubator plus and not to a separate miraheze subdomain, it will be a large increase. Anyways, I suggest that you check out both incubator plus and miraheze subdomain wikis. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 11:49, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

@Katryn Khoroszov:, sorry if I’m pinging you too much, but if you have a comment about this please leave it here and not in my user talk page to increase the chances others will see it and be able to comment as well. Feel free to ping me. Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 11:30, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Middle English Wikiquote[edit]

Hi @MF-Warburg:, I really don’t want to spam, which I feel I may have done with the requests for creating Middle English Wikipedia (I created the 5th one and commented a lot on the 4th) and the request for comment, but I have a question. I understand that Middle English is not eligible for Wikipedia but do you think it’s eligible for Wikiquote? I’m asking because Ancient Greek Wikiquote was verified as eligible (link). I don’t plan of creating a test wiki or submitting a request and don’t want to increase the burden of LangCom any more than I already have but I’m just curious do you think it’s eligible. Also I know there once was a test wiki Wq/enm which was deleted. If not then maybe such a wiki will be created in incubator plus after this wiki is moved there (I will create the xml dump).
p.s. Thank you very much for giving a notice one month in advance before the deletion on June 1. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 11:28, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

I really can't predict it. No idea. --MF-W {a, b} 13:51, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
@MF-Warburg:, I see thank you very much! As I said, I don’t plan to submit a request or create a test wiki. Btw, what is the purpose of I saw it my Special:CentralAuth. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 14:13, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
It's a technical wiki that facilitates the unified login on all Wikimedia wikis. MF-W {a, b} 14:18, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
@MF-Warburg:, I see. Thank you very much! -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 16:42, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

New update causing problems[edit]

Hi @MF-Warburg:, what’s up with the new update? Instead of [[Wp/enm/article|article]], I see [[article]] which is annoying. When I edit the source code of the page I would like to see the source code not a modified version of it. Also it adds all pages the the main category including redirects. Is there a way to disable it? I know it’s not really relevant what happens here since the wiki will be deleted soon but the update effects the entirety of the incubator. Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 19:37, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

COMMENT I noticed when an anon created Wp/enm/Atlantick Ocen it didn’t force add it to the category. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 19:58, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
This update has also caused Wp/enm/Wikipaedia:Sandbox to not appear properly. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 06:17, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
See here. Errors should be reported there. You can disable the gadget in the preferences. --MF-W {a, b} 11:55, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
@MF-Warburg:, thank you very much! I don’t think those are errors, but they are annoying for me at least. I have disabled the gadget. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 12:21, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
I have asked in Incubator:Community Portal to change it so that redirect pages and sandboxes don’t get added to the main category of any test wiki. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 12:31, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Milestone - more than 600 articles[edit]

According to the main category, Category:Wp/enm, there are 607 articles however this includes some redirects because of a recent update which added newly created pages to the main category. According to my calculations, it’s actually 601 articles which means we have passed the 600 articles milestone, though it’s possible there are more pages which are in the main category but shouldn’t be that I have missed. Please leave a comment if that is the case. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 06:38, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Sad news[edit]

Our Wikipedia is accidentally to be deleted in 2022 in Summer Do not delete, stay the wiki37.53.87.246 16:50, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi @, this deletion is after over a year of debating (I’m sure there was some debate also before that). I along with other users tried to change the policy to make ancient languages allowed (mostly using my previous account User:Gifnk dlm 2020). If you feel you have compelling arguments that might convince them you can try at Incubator:Requests for deletions/Requests. There’s also the request and an inactive request for comment which I doubt anyone will look into. Let me tell you btw that when I suggested ways to review the quality of test wikis in ancient languages the policy makers said they are still against wikis in ancient languages because they are “not useful”. If you want to try, you are free to do so but I recommend to create an account and not to do so as an IP address. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 18:52, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
COMMENT I would like to add that content will not be lost. I will create an xml dump before it gets deleted and share it. I won’t be the one deleting and I don’t support the deletion, but since the date was announced I can create a dump before that. The dump can be imported to incubator plus which works like incubator.wikimedia only isn’t hosted by wikimedia. One annoying thing is that “check test wiki activity” doesn’t work there. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 19:22, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

The Canterbury Tales without thorns[edit]

Hi @Amicus111:, I see you moved Wp/enm/Þe Caunterbury Tales to Wp/enm/The Canterbury Tales since it was published with th and not with thorn. Just curious, don’t you plan to change it also in the article itself and in the DEFAULTSORT? -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 18:21, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Ȝes Gifnk dlm 2020, þat is riȜte, me uill chanȜe þe DEFAULTSORT and to his oriȜinale hate. Þanc Ȝov for remenyng me. Ic þec þancie micel, 𝑨𝒎𝒊𝒄𝒖𝒔 (𝐭𝐚𝐥𝐤) 16:59, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
@Amicus111:, for some reason in the article Wp/enm/The Canterbury Tales the DEFAULTSORT is in the middle and not at the end like it normally would be.

[[Image:Canterbury Tales.png|200px|thumb|Þe [[Wp/enm/Peple|peple]] in Þe Caunterbury Tales.]]

'''Þe Caunterbury Tales''' beeþ a recueil of schore-and-faur spelles be [[Wp/enm/Geoffrey Chaucer|Geoffrey Chaucer]] þe whiche containeþ tales ytolde be [[Wp/enm/Pilgrym|pilgrymes]] of his ficcioun on wei to þe [[Wp/enm/Chirche|chirche]] of St. [[Wp/enm/Thomas Becket|Thomas Becket]] in [[Wp/enm/Caunterbiri, Kent|Caunterbury]].

{{DEFAULTSORT:Caunterbury Tales}}

Þe Caunterbury Tales aren belike þe most weliknowen [[Wp/enm/Newe Englissh|Englissh]] werk in þe [[Wp/enm/Myddle Ages|middle-ages]]. Ywritten be Geoffrey Chaucer negh þe ende of his lifes, þe werk haþ þoled in dyverse fragmentes.

A groupe of xxix pilgrimes and þe tellere "Chaucer" meten atte Tabart Inne in [[Wp/enm/Souþewerk|Southwerke]] souþ of [[Wp/enm/Lundene|Londune]]. Harry Baily þe ouere proposeth þat thei faren to Caunterburie togedere and ech scholde tellen foure spelles, two þider and two þennes mo.

Þe prise for þe winnere is a fre mel.

purpos was to schewen a pycture of þe Englyshe peple to his readeres. He schowed þe foghelle off sosieti and peple in fayre humour.

That is strange. Not gonna lie. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 17:13, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

A question about incubator plus[edit]

Hi @Ooswesthoesbes, StevenJ81:, pinging incubator admins who are also incubator plus admins. Since Middle English Wikipedia will be deleted from the incubator, I have been looking into incubator plus, and I have noticed that “Check Wiki activity” doesn’t actually work. Why is that and is there a way to see the statistics of a test wiki in incubator plus? Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 18:32, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Check wiki activity is a tool that is specific to this version of incubator and its sole reason is to check for activity for requirement reasons. As Incubator Plus hosts wikis that per definition do not fit the requirements for approval, the tool has not been expanded to include Incubator Plus. In short, those statistics are unavailable. --OWTB (talk) 06:02, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
@User:Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123: Also, if you plan to go to Incubator Plus, please let us know well in advance of June 1. I need time to import it on that wiki, as well as help to actually create the xml-export file (maybe User:MF-Warburg would be willing to help me out with that?). --OWTB (talk) 06:06, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
@Ooswesthoesbes:, I see about the statistics. I still feel seeing the statistics is useful to know which users are the most active. All users I have discussed this with say that incubator plus is the best option so I think I plan to move it there. I know how to create an xml dump, and have done so multiple times, but because I don’t want any edits to be “lost” I prefer to make the dump a day before the deletion. Also, in addition to moving the wiki to incubator plus I plan to share the dumps for preservation purposes. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 07:29, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Alright, perfect. In case you make an xml, make sure you've got all namespaces covered and provide a version with full history. --OWTB (talk) 07:33, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
@Ooswesthoesbes:, I take the list of pages from “Check test wiki activity”, copy it to Special:Export, cancel “Include only the current revision, not the full history“, enable “include templates” (I enabled that in the previous dumps not sure if I should do it in the one that will be imported since all prefixed templates would be in the dump anyways), and keep “Save as file enabled” (not sure what it does if it’s disabled). -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 07:42, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
As you already explained to yourself, I do not think it is necessary to include the templates. Judging from "Check test wiki activity", I think you've got everything covered then :) --OWTB (talk) 07:47, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
@Ooswesthoesbes:, thank you very much! Just one more question: is it possible to create a global userpage in Miraheze like its possible in Wikimedia using meta.wikimedia? Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 08:22, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Not as far as I'm aware, but I might be wrong. --OWTB (talk) 08:28, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
@Ooswesthoesbes:, thank you very much! -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 11:51, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Miraheze dumps[edit]

Hi @Ooswesthoesbes:, hope I’m not pinging too much but I have a question. Wikimedia creates regular dumps of all wikis which can be found here. Does Miraheze also create such dumps? If yes, then where can they be found? Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 07:37, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Miraheze does not automatically generate dumps, but there is a special page (DataDump) that allows administrators to create them themselves. --OWTB (talk) 08:17, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
@Ooswesthoesbes:, I see. Thank you very much! Is there a way to see a list of all pages in a specific test wiki? To get a list of page in a test wiki in the incubator.wikimedia, the way I know is to press on “Check test wiki activity” and tick “List all pages and redirects (not recommended)”. But “check test wiki activity doesn’t work in incubator.miraheze. It’s possible to use Special:PrefixIndex/Wp/enm/ but then you need to manually add talk pages, templates, categories, etc. Is there a better way? Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 11:31, 22 May 2022 (UTC)


@Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123:, how did you make your signature such fancy with colors? Also, how did you remove 123 from your signature and how did you add the emojis? 123 is part of your username while the emojis aren’t! I’m confused! Please help! -Your discussions are amazing (talk) 12:19, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

@Your discussions are amazing:, You can create a custom signature in Special:Preferences and use wikimarkup to create a fancy signature if you want to. But please, stop leaving spam comments in discussions. I don’t consider this question as spam but writing “Your discussions are amazing” definitely is spam so please stop. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 12:31, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
OK I will stop. Thank you very much! -Your discussions are amazing (talk) 12:33, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
@Your discussions are amazing:, you are welcome! -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 12:37, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Amazing! I didn’t know one could customize his signature like that! -Fscgtscggdfgfdx (talk) 17:23, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Xml dump[edit]

@Your discussions are amazing, Amicus111, Ooswesthoesbes, Gudra223, Haoreima, MF-Warburg, Cartoonfanfivethousend, Katryn Khoroszov, Laʒamon Æft-iboren:, pinging recent contributors. As you may or may not know, Middle English Wikipedia will be deleted from incubator.wikimedia on June 1. I will create an dml dump before the planned deletion. If you would like to be pinged when the dump is shared, please add your username to User:Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123/Users to ping. Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 13:00, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

@Artoria2e5, YoungstownToast, Ursulageorges, AurelianusAmbrose, DiuPater, PolarWafflez, LittleWhole, Whaales, DTL1234, The Hypnotizer, NASAPeepo, Xbspiro, Nevergonnagiveyou, Zarzagoa, Vikipad, Alfred our king, EvilPita, Pc98isthegreatestsystemevermad, C64 is the best computer, Haffdxco:, pinging users who have been active in late 2020, and/or during 2021 in case they are are also interested in receiving the dump. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 17:43, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
@User:Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123: Of course, let me know when it is ready and if it has to be imported on Incubator plus. Greetings, --OWTB (talk) 06:10, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
@Ooswesthoesbes:, I have added you to the list which means you will get notified when the dump is ready. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 08:20, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh yes PLEASE send me a copy of the dump. I assume it will be a link sent through MediaWiki’s built in email system, so I wouldn’t need to post my email here? Artoria2e5 (talk) 23:53, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

@Artoria2e5:, I plan to send the link in my user talk page (User talk:Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123) and ping all the users listed in User:Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123/Users to ping. If you would like to get pinged, please add your username to that list. Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 05:42, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
@Artoria2e5:, I have added you to the list which means you will get notified when the dump is ready. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 08:21, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

@A cute wikipedian, Biglittlehugesmall65, CopernicusAD, GoodClover, Landthins15, Nailuj29, Sfenj, TartarTorte, Zippee100:, pinging users who have set their preferred test wiki to Middle English Wikipedia and whom I haven’t pinged yet. Are you interested in getting pinged after the xml dump is released? If you are, please add your username to the list in User:Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123/Users to ping or leave a message in this thread so that I will add. Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 16:34, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

I have added my username to the list. Can’t wait to see the xml dump! -Fscgtscggdfgfdx (talk) 17:26, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Added text on the top[edit]

Hi, I have added text above saying that this is the main discussion page of Middle English Wikipedia. Hope that’s fine. -Fscgtscggdfgfdx (talk) 17:27, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

@Fscgtscggdfgfdx:, that’s fine by me! I have edited it a bit adding Template:Wp/enm/En to clarify that it’s in New English in case other users would like to translate it to Middle English/other languages so that this text will be available in multiple languages. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 17:54, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

A request[edit]

Hi @MF-Warburg:, I plan to create an xml dump before the planned deletion of Middle English Wikipedia, but since I don’t want any edits to be “lost”, is it possible by any chance that you will disable editing in the test project not today but one day before the deletion? Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 08:12, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Sure. I can disable it on June 1 (in the European evening, probably) and then delete when you notify me the export is done. --MF-W {a, b} 22:07, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
@MF-Warburg:, thank you very much! -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 06:02, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
@MF-Warburg:, I don’t want to make it look like I’m rushing the deletion, but do you plan to disable editing? I want the xml dump to include all revisions of Middle English Wikipedia so that no edits will be “lost”. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 18:22, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
It's done. --MF-W {a, b} 18:39, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Activity on incubator plus[edit]

Hi @Ooswesthoesbes:, is there any way to see which users are the most active in a certain test wiki in incubator plus? Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 11:50, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Not as far as I'm aware. --OWTB (talk) 12:04, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
@Ooswesthoesbes, I see. Thanks anyways! Btw, will it be ok I after creating the dump I will upload to internet archive and send a link containing multiple dumps of Middle English Wikipedia? They will include dates so that you will be able to import the most recent one to incubator plus. Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 13:01, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
Sure, keep me informed. --OWTB (talk) 13:03, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
@Ooswesthoesbes:, will do! I will add the text “most recent” to the title of the most recent dump to make finding it easier. 😃 -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 13:23, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

The Request for Comment[edit]

Hi @MF-Warburg:, the request for comment which I have opened using my previous account Gifnk dlm 2020, Start allowing ancient languages has been inactive for 5 months. Shouldn’t it be closed as unsuccessful? I’m asking since I would like to include it in the archive of Middle English Wikipedia. Also I left a comment saying the same (minus the part that I would like to include it in the archive) in the request for comment itself 11 days ago, and nobody has answered. Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 13:39, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Moving already deleted test projects to incubator plus[edit]

Hi @Ooswesthoesbes:, I really hope I’m not spamming, but I have a question. Is it possible to move tests wikis that have already got deleted from incubator.wikimedia to incubator.miraheze? I mean for example Old French Wikipedia (Wp/fro) and Proto Germanic Wikipedia (Wp/gem). Don’t worry, I will create and xml dump of Middle English Wikipedia, I got assured that the deletion itself won’t happen on June 1 - on June 1 editing will be disabled, and Middle English Wikipedia won’t get deleted before I make the dump. I’m asking about test wikis that were already deleted. Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 19:48, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't believe it's possible to export deleted pages. That would actually require undeleting it first. --OWTB (talk) 09:36, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
@Ooswesthoesbes:, ok I see. Thank you very much! Is there an option to mass undelete pages with a certain prefix or would that require an admin to undelete pages one by one? -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 10:55, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
Maybe User:MF-Warburg knows that. --OWTB (talk) 12:27, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
There is no option for mass restoring. --MF-W {a, b} 14:41, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
@MF-Warburg:, I see. Thank you very much! -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 15:14, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Death[edit]

Is this wiki dead?