User talk:Ooswesthoesbes

Things to think about
Hi. On some of the topics we were discussing over there ... That's all I can think of for now. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:19, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Practical name of the wiki = ? (but I agree: we don't have to decide today )
 * I'm sure we should have Extension:WikimediaIncubator here.
 * Since this is going to be a multilingual project, in principle I'd have Extension:Translate and Extension:UniversalLanguageSelector here. But I'm not sure how well they'll work—especially ULS—unless we have a feed of multilingual messages from translatewiki. And for the life of me I wouldn't know how to do that. (Unless you do, we're going to need help.)
 * Confirm with @Revi that we have that edit activity exemption in place.
 * I think you're allowed to edit the local interwiki map here. So probably you should add an interwiki to WM Incubator (probably "wmincubator" or something like that).
 * I think we should probably start out with CC 3.0, not 4.0. I'm sure 4.0 is better, but for right now all of the content at Wikimedia Incubator is only licensed at 3.0, so we'd have to inform people of that every single time we move something here. Just not worth the effort.
 * As far as adding to the Interwiki map over at Meta-Wiki, since I imagine miraheze: should go to the main page of meta.miraheze.org, I'm going to wait until we have a working name here so that I can point that to our local main page.
 * I'm pretty bad at coming up with names. Incubator Plus has already been taken, so Incubator Extra is all I can think of, but it sounds horrible. We probably should stick to Incubator Miraheze vs. Incubator (otherwise unspecified means Wikimedia).
 * Yes, if you know how to add it.
 * In general, my technical knowledge is very basic, so I don't even know what you mean exactly.
 * Yes.
 * I just checked the special pages, but I couldn't find any special page in which I can set the interwikis.
 * I found the special page to select the license, but 3.0 was not an option.
 * Yes, I agree. :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:30, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of "New Incubator Plus", myself. But I'm open to suggestions, too.
 * I can't see Special:ManageWiki, because you need 'crat privileges for that. But I think that at least certain extensions can be activated from that page (or maybe Special:ManageWikiExtensions). For others you have to go to Miraheze's phabricator. See m:ManageWiki.
 * Translator is the extension that allows people to translate pages that need to be multilingual. (Pages marked for translation are the ones that have Translate this page, often with a notice that the page has been changed since last markup.) ULS is the one that puts the multilingual control at the top of the page and lets you see the interface in your native language. My guess is that those two extensions can probably just be switched on at Special:ManageWiki (or maybe Special:ManageWikiExtensions).
 * What I don't quite know is (a) just how much of this infrastructure is currently available at Incubator Plus, and (b) just how much we really need to provide, given that just about nobody here is going to be creating projects in languages likely to be found on translatewiki. That said, there may well be people who at least aren't fluent in English.
 * [skip]
 * I think I made a mistake about that. We may have to ask a steward. Eventually there will be a group here called  that will be able to handle if a 'crat requests. See m:Requests for Comment/Interwiki links editing.
 * I think we need to request 3.0 centrally, probably on phabricator. See m:ManageWiki.
 * [pending]
 * Have a good weekend. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:58, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Or maybe Incubator Plus 2.0, as we will probably abandon the Wikia version anyway.
 * I made you a crat so you can check it out yourself :)
 * Yes, I know the extensions, but I don't know how to enable them, as I couldn't find them in the list on the special pages.
 * (a) Incubator Plus basically lacks any infrastructure. No extensions have been enabled, and the little bits that were set up were made unusable due to Wikia's policy of becoming Fandom. I'll stop discussing that topic any further, because I'm fed up with Wikia now... :P (b) As, probably, most languages will be either unrecognized minority languages, historical languages, conlangs, or revival languages, it is safe to assume the editors are fluent in a language established at TranslateWiki, so enabling translations, especially for common languages such as French, Spanish, Chinese, Arabic, etc, makes sense.
 * Yes, that seems to be the way to handle that.
 * I can imagine that changing a license isn't too much of work to do, so Revi might be able to help us out there. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:46, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * My first-ever job was as a clerk-typist at NASA Headquarters in Washington, so I guess I’m an experienced bureaucrat. (-)
 * ULS was already in. I found Translate and activated it. I also added WikiLove and the Sandbox link. And last, I added a skin, Vector Dark, which is good for a nighttime mode.
 * As for WikimediaIncubator, I think I want to talk to Robin (who wrote it) before we request installation. Mostly, the default info pages don’t work quite right, and I’m not sure how we manage langcodes that will never see the light of day at WMF. So I’d like an idea about those things before we start.
 * Are you going to contact communities on Incubator Plus one by one? Move Plus over at once? (I don’t think we should volunteer to move any project that took its own subdomain on Wikia, but probably if people come to ask us we can do that.
 * Finally, I’m going to try to recast the Miraheze logo in the Incubator logo colors and see what I get.
 * Thanks for being willing to help with the summer update. I’m actually going to be around a little less in the next few weeks, so it would be a help. I’ll write you over there explaining how I’ve been doing it when I’m actually n a computer, probably tomorrow. StevenJ81 (talk) 22:08, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Very good :)
 * I'll put a notice on there, but I'm not going to move the projects unless they request to be moved (for now). More important is updating the links on the Wikimedia Incubator to here once we're ready. The other subdomains can be treated the same way, although I think chances are small they are willing to move from their own domain to a place where prefixes etc. are necessary.
 * That is very good as well :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:27, 31 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Inactivity exemption is granted, FYI. &mdash; revi  03:35, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Requested interwiki map update at m:Stewards' noticeboard. StevenJ81 (talk) 23:01, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Section break (20:26, 31 July 2018 (UTC))
Oh, and I'm good with . So that's now. See Main Page. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:44, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) The local interwiki map was updated. The prefix is , so your user page there is wmincubator:User:Ooswesthoesbes. (The change was not applied to Miraheze's global interwiki map.)
 * 2) When I start putting in config requests at phabricator, one that I'm surely going to request is that only 'crats can upload files. I do not want to have to start messing with EDPs. Only reason I'm even going to let us upload is so that we can potentially upload a wiki logo and xml archive files, nothing else.
 * 3) One other I'm thinking about depends on what you prefer: We could configure this wiki so that wmincubator: and wikia:c:incubatorplus are both permissible targets for transwiki importing. Then you (we?) wouldn't have to fuss with xml-based importing, at least from those sites. Is there a reason I'm not aware of that we shouldn't do that? StevenJ81 (talk) 20:26, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
 * ...but I'm also going to have to ask phabricator to restore the name of the Project: namespace to Incubator:, because Incubator Plus 2.0: is just too long. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:45, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Very good!
 * I think that is good enough. Images can alternatively be linked to Commons.
 * I'm only used to xml import, so I'm not too familiar with transwiki importing. However, I see no reason not to have transwiki import enabled. For small tests, it can be easy.
 * I agree, we should keep the project namespace short, as it won't interfere with Wikimedia Incubator. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:50, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Above added as phab:T3445. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:33, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * OK. They finished the phab task. But I'm seeing two bugs, still:
 * Sysops can still upload files (though "users" no longer can)
 * Something odd happened with the namespace adjustment. If you look, for example, at Special:AllPages, the drop-down box (for namespace) contains "Incubator:" twice. But at the moment it can't find the only page I've created in that namespace (a test page called I:Community Portal) unless you search using the second one. I'm going to hold off on asking for these corrections for a day or two, because I don't want them to start thinking of me as a pain in the backside, and because I'm wondering if some system-wide database upload is necessary before that completely resolves.
 * Note, though, that the aliases I: and IT: now work.
 * In order for transwiki import to work from (old) Incubator Plus, they had to create a prefix. So that is now wikiaincubatorplus:. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:59, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't know whether that's a problem. Are we going to make the sysop status the test admin status or are we simply not allowing test admins? As they will not get their own subdomain, test admins seems rather unnecessary.
 * That is something that should be addressed indeed.
 * I noticed the new interwiki, which is good :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:22, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I thought wikimediaincubator extension included test-sysop by default. (Correct me if it is not) &mdash; revi  11:15, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * That could very well be the case. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 11:31, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure it does, at that.
 * I think we'd want something like test-sysop anyway. It's one thing for such people to manage their tests, and we can definitely discuss whether the associated set of rights shouldn't be broadened some. After all, I'm thinking that once this is running we're not going to manage it as tightly as we do WM Incubator. On the other hand, I doubt we want to give everyone managing a test the full sysop toolbox, either.
 * In that spirit, we can probably let sysops as well as 'crats upload files. Anyone who is actually promoted to (full) sysop is going to understand the upload policy. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:17, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree, though I must also say that this site probably requires way less management than Wikimedia Incubator, as it probably won't get as active.
 * The one question that remains: on Wikia Incubator, some tests actually used images. How are we going to deal with these? --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:11, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't want to host images at all. Instant Commons is loaded here, so we don't really need to have images. Any images in Wikia Incubator that cannot go on Commons have to go, I think. I'm leaving you and me upload rights, but aside from logos (which I did upload today) and .xml archive files, I don't want files here, either. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:57, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The main issue lies in tests such as this one, which uses images to represent invented characters. Shall we just leave them at wikia then? --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 09:02, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

That's what I'm inclined to do. I certainly don't want to allow "fair use" files here. In theory, I suppose we could consider allowing anything that an individual has created and is willing to license under CC0 or CC BY-SA. But frankly, I don't want the responsibility of making sure that people aren't really violating copyrights. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:59, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree. I think we lack the man power to check all images. Also, the creation of the necessary infrastructure is a lot of work. If people want to upload their own images, they can do so at Commons. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:30, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

August 15
T3492 has the request to activate the WMIncubator extension and to fix the odd problems with the Incubator: namespace. I also put in a request at Stewards' noticeboard to have the iso639-3: interwiki added to our table. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:45, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Very good, thank you! :) What do you mean with the iso639-3 interwiki? --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:29, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The iso639-3 interwiki is available on WM Incubator and other WMF projects. iso639-3:lad, for example, takes you directly to the listing at SIL for lad (Ladino, or Judeo-Spanish). It's really for quick reference for you and me. (And you can actually link any ISO code (-1, -2, -3 or -5) and it will work. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:29, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah, like that. That's very useful indeed! :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 13:56, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

OK. The namespace issues are fixed, including a follow-up problem that the I: and IT: aliases were pointing to now-deleted namespaces. All of that now works properly. Incubator extension is installed, but phabricator needs us to decide on configuration variables. Starting with the items in the section I linked, here are my thoughts and/or questions:

  and  : Just a couple of other notes here: More configuration questions to follow later. But I do have a day job. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:40, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I certainly don't see a reason why we wouldn't, at minimum, have wp, wt, wb, wq, wy in the first group. Nearly all the projects currently in wikiaincubatorplus: are Wikipedias and Wiktionaries. There aren't currently wq or wy projects there, but I don't see where there's such a big issue if someone wants to create one. There is one wb—a Simple English one. And while in that specific case I'd really encourage those people to create SE books within English Wikibooks, in principle there's no problem on that, either.
 * Here are cases that I am less certain about how to proceed:
 * (a) Wn. There's only one, a Simple English Wikinews that doesn't look like it's been touched in years. Do we want to be in the news publishing business if someone wants to create something? The current, official Wn projects are mostly unsuccessful as it is. I'm inclined to say no . If we say yes, though, can we do it without using DynamicPageList (or DynamicPageList3)? Do you know those extensions? I don't, and I don't especially want to support those extensions unless you do know them.
 * (b) Wv. There's only one, and it contains a single lesson by the creator of this Eezee language as to how to speak it. In that respect, I don't mind hosting very simple "Wikiversities" like that, although things like that could as easily be placed in a WP, WT or WB project, too. I especially don't want to start supporting wv-only extensions of the sort they have on Beta, like Quiz, because I don't know them. And I'm not really even sure how languages of the sort we would host here would ever really be able to support something like a Wikiversity. The lack of them on the current Plus says a lot. On this one, I'd like either to say "no" or to say "yes, but we will not support wv-specific extensions here.
 * Note on (a) and (b) One reason to give the limited "yes" answers above is simply to make the transition smooth, and to make it seem like we're not really micromanaging this: "If you want to create something, create it. Our only limitation is that we're not supporting [such-and-such].
 * (c) Ws. There are currently none of these. Given that oldwikisource allows content in otherwise-ineligible extinct and historical languages, I'm not sure who would ever start one of these, except perhaps for someone writing in an artificial language that is in wide enough use to have source material, but not in wide enough use for WMF to allow. And at that I'm not even sure oldwikisource wouldn't allow them. Thoughts?
 * (d) All other. One of the early items on the Main Page talk page at Plus is about allowing "other" types of projects. At the time, it was recommended that those go to something called "scratchpad" at Wikia. Scratchpad is no longer open, because it is now very easy for people to open a new wiki on Wikia (or, for that matter, on Miraheze). We have one such project currently, a "Korean WikiSport". Aside from the question of whether such a thing would be considered a trademark issue by WMF, do we want such projects, or would we rather have them establish themselves elsewhere? What about the current one (if it's even active)?
 * It's not clear to me that even a lot of the "active" projects listed at Plus are even active. Do we leave truly dormant projects there?
 * Current license there may be CC BY-SA 2.5, so I'll probably add a note to what you wrote stating that all moved projects will have their licenses updated to that.
 * @Revi: Your opinions on this stuff welcome, too! StevenJ81 (talk) 14:47, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks!
 * Wn: I think you're going to do DPL or you're doing the listings manually. And I don't think we need to keep that dormant wiki here - maybe just store the XML somewhere safe in case someone is really interested and can start with the old details so they know what it used to be. (Being news site, old data is probably useless because news focuses on now.)
 * I don't know what is wikiversity-specific extensions, but I think they can live without the extensions. And just one page, I don't think it hurts to store them.
 * (Skipped Ws) I don't think WikiSport is trademarked by WMF (I think we'll need to confirm but I'm pretty sure the answer is negative) Things that are currently here - I think I can help them getting a new wiki, but that means they're no longer getting the protection of incubatorwiki's dormancy rules exemption (hehe).
 * I don't see any harm importing everything marked as active - if we don't micromanage, it's just better to be inclusive, I think.
 * For the sake of simplicity, I'd rather upgrade the license but I think we need some sort of transitioning method, I don't think we can blindly mark everything as 3.0.
 * &mdash; revi  14:59, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree with wp, wt, wb, wq, and wy.
 * @Wn: While I understand your reasoning, I don't see why we shouldn't allow it. It probably is not going to take up a lot of space/monitoring. I used DynamicPageList at Wn/li, so I know how the input works. I'm not familiar with the technical side and whether it's difficult to implement it.
 * @Wv: The same reasoning as Wn. While in general it can fit the other projects, it's probably easier and simpler to understand for other users to keep it here as well.
 * @Ws: Oldwikisource does not include new languages that are not eligible for their own subdomain, so therefore we can allow Wikisource here.
 * @WikiSport: it can remain at Wikia. I don't think there's any need for new projects on this wiki. I'm afraid it's going to become too messy. Any new proposals for projects can try out at their own wikis.
 * @Active: I agree with moving over anything that is marked active, even if they're probably not active anymore. We can still message the original creators prior to moving whether they agree with migrating and license change.
 * --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 15:07, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * OK. Let me summarize:
 * We're going to allow any of the seven project types here. (There will be no project types in the  list.)
 * With Wn, we're ok with DPL. (I'm not going to turn it on until we need it, but it's available through Special:ManageWikiExtensions. Do you want DPL or DPL3?) With Wv, we're not going to support extra extensions like Quiz. With Ws, we'll allow, but if anyone tries to create one in a "real, but historical/extinct" language, we'll encourage them to go to first.
 * We're going to offer to import all tests listed as something other than "off" on Incubator Plus's main page (table reproduced at Template:Wikiatests). There are only two exceptions: Korean Wikisport (out of scope, stays at Wikia) and Simple English Wikinews (obsolete news site). We can decide about the "off" ones later.
 * We will need to have some means of contacting content creators and asking them if upgrading license is satisfactory. (Question: is a general notice that "moving" constitutes acceptance of a license update sufficient—at least for communities where there is current activity?)
 * We can upload an XML of that Simple English Wikinews to our filespace if content creators agree to a license upgrade.
 * Per higher on the page: we're not hosting images, even free ones. Only sysops can upload files, and the only files permitted will be (a) project logos and (b) XML archives of content contributed here (or that Simple English news one, maybe). I'm still waiting to hear back from WM Trademarks about the logo.
 * StevenJ81 (talk) 17:52, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Continuing with configuration variables ... That's not quite everything, but it's most of what's left. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:08, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * (the name used as your "default test" if you pick "maintenance" as your test: In place of "Incubator" and short version "inc", probably "Incubator Plus" and "incplus".
 * Maximum language code length: Why not?
 * (database of wikis with existing codes) and  (database of closed wikis): Probably should be blank/null here.
 * for the extension right  is false for most people, true for sysop.
 * Info Pages: I'm not sure how these are even going to behave here. Let me skip this configuration bit for the moment. (I'll come back to it.)
 * Courtesy link to licenses and their differences: https://wiki.creativecommons.org/wiki/License_Versions. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:30, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

@Wn: I think DPL is sufficient.

@Ws: I agree that historical languages have a place at Oldwikisource.

@Wikia: I think the best way would be to simply content the main contributors on their talk page prior to moving a test and give them one week time to react.

@XML: Sure, although I still think there should be a place for them at en.wn, as that wiki itself is not really that active. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:17, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

OK. I put everything into phabricator. Let's see what happens when this all gets turned on. Meanwhile, have a good weekend, and thanks for your massive work in plowing through the projects on WM Incubator! StevenJ81 (talk) 20:19, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Very good, thank you! :) @WM: No problem :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:23, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Request for admin
Hey, can I get an admin temporarily (few hours to two days are fine)? Looks like you've got some bad names and afaik it cannot be deleted in a normal way (delete buttons, I mean). I can do that, but I need admin bits to delete it, we all know that :) &mdash; revi  14:11, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Doing. As far as I'm concerned, you can keep the bit at minimum until we really get this underway. Your help in configuring things here will be greatly appreciated. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:41, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I deleted the pages. &mdash; revi  14:44, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I propose you keep the admin state for the time being. I see no reason why you can't be admin here, as you've proven yourself to be very useful to have around :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 15:08, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * That makes this a very top-heavy wiki. Ratio of sysops to "ordinary" users (defined as one regular edit) is, well, &infin;. (Of course, adding Revi didn't change that, unless you consider 2/0 > 3/0 a change.) StevenJ81 (talk) 17:30, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's very important in this case. And also, we are still in the development phase. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:11, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

August 23: Infrastructure and such
StevenJ81 (talk) 15:54, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) The issue of the Incubator Extension is still pending on the phabricator, and in any event I'm thinking about what happens if doesn't really work right here. On the whole, I'm not sure it's absolutely essential that we get the extension working. In my view, there are just a couple of things from the extension that I really, really want, and a couple of others that would be "very nice to have". The rest could end up being more complicated than would be worthwhile.
 * 2) *I really, really want: (i) Test-administrators, and (ii) no unprefixed pages in mainspace [and except for infrastructure, in Template, Module, Category spaces). I think (i) can be implemented independently of the extension; (ii) we'd have to enforce, but unless I miss my guess it won't be that hard to do, if we set a rule in place that unprefixed pages immediately get "userfied" without further notification.
 * 3) *"Nice to have": Search within tests, random pages within tests, new pages within tests, recent changes within tests, and all the other things like that. They do make life a lot easier. On the other hand, since projects here will generally not be moving anywhere, our need to monitor such things—test activity, and what have you—will be a lot lower here than it is on WM Incubator.
 * 4) Meanwhile, we need to start creating/importing at least minimal infrastructure: Home page, community portal, admins' noticeboard, some pages on standards and rules, some infrastructure templates. I'll start playing with this over the next few days; I'll take care of this, at least initially, because I'm counting on you to do the heavy lifting on transferring contents here once we're open for business. (But feel free—and you, too, @Revi.)
 * 5) * Probably this user talk page will get moved to become an archive of either AN or CP, leaving you a clean user talk page for "regular business". (OK?) Some things on my user talk page will be integrated.
 * 6) Target date to open: 1 September? 15 September?
 * I agree, although with the expected activity levels here, I don't think having unprefixed pages will become to hard to manage. Although, it will be easy :)
 * Sure, go ahead :) I will import the tests once we know more about the enabling of the incubator extension and how that will work on non-standard prefixes.
 * Yes :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 09:10, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

(As you saw, OWTB, WMF Legal turned down our logo, and I've taken it down. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:17, 24 August 2018 (UTC))
 * Not sure if abusefilter can do the trick (if we can't do Incubator ext.)
 * Search in Miraheze is not as powerful as Wikimedia does - it lacks w:Elasticsearch, which is the powerful search engine backing Wikimedia search backend. (And miraheze folks are not going to install it.)
 * I'll keep an eye on the import stuff and try to import other (possibly) useful stuff. :)
 * Either time is fine to me! &mdash; revi  16:43, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, I saw it too. Let's keep the Miraheze logo for now. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:29, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Fine.
 * Not going to be ready 1 September (which is Saturday). Going to aim for 15 September. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:29, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, there is no reason to be hasty as this is a side project anyway. So take your time :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 15:32, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

6 September and the Incubator extension is in operation
The good news is: The WikimediaIncubator extension was turned on today. On an admittedly quick check, here's what seems to be working right, and here's what doesn't. (Feel free to add, so we have a single repository for these.) Just FYI: I'm going to be away off and on the next several weeks because of all the Jewish holidays. StevenJ81 (talk) 22:29, 6 September 2018 (UTC)