Talk:Wp/enm/Mayne Page

1
Moved from "Talk:Wp/enm/" --Kaganer 18:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

very cool. But how do we know what time period the text should be from and geographical location?


 * What do you qualify as "Middle English"? The Middle English of "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" was contemporary with Chaucer's middle English, except they look nothing the same (Sir Gawain is written in a much more conservative, northern dialect). Perhaps you should say something like "All English used by Chaucer and Monmoth (sp?) is acceptable ME". Also, maybe, you should outline certain sound changes, spelling rules etc for people who want to contribute to this test wiki. All the best, Bryan BryanAJParry


 * I think it shouldn't matter what dialect you write in. On the Modern English Wikipedia, people post in British as well as American English so if you are reading an article, it might switch between American and British English. So in the Middle English Wikipedia, there could be different dialects, however different, even in the same article. -- Wikitiki89 23:55, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Hallo. It is trewe, as Briane haþ seyde, when ðæt man sholde scryven as in ðis cas in middel anglise, þat suiche a nam is brodre than man wolde ðinken, for it refereð to a period of foure hundred yaren, in which many different scrives manneren. Peradventure 'twere bettre þæt we formed some sort of concordat on ðis, but I fere þæt ðis coulde forfenden and demarken forcome contributiouns. IINAG

Hi. I started this wiki, but I've been a bit behind in keeping up with it. I'd say early middle English, using þ and yogh, with the full verb declension (ich stande, þou standest, he standeþ, we/ye/þey standeþ). We should probably decide on acceptable variations on OE for the wiki. --JamesR1701E 08:00, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

I think that multiple varieties should be accepted, as that is part of the rich heritage of ME. However, perhaps each article should include a note of which variety it is in, and various standards for each variety could be adopted? I think this is a good idea, but I'm unsure how it will pan out. I would contribute, but I fear I do not adequately know how to write Middle English (as opposed to reading it). Jade Knight 00:30, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Let's just use the most well known variation of Middle English (I believe it's Chaucer's English?). It doesn't make sense to use multiple variations as articles shall be edited by many different persons.

Having dealt with the Old English wiki, it seems that having a standard dialect for articles would be a great idea. The Chancery Standard would probably be the most appropriate, but let's face it, that would be boring. AlmightyTim 21:04, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Excellent idea creating a Middle English language wikipedia. I am very interested in the language and also like the Anglo Saxon wikipedia. I would like to see this expanded further. --Ted-m 14:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Excellent idea. I'll certainly contribute to this. --Gray Porpoise 19:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Shan't Wikipaedia pages beeþ in a Wikipaedia namespace? --Gray Porpoise 14:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

No, thae donot have to arte there (excuseth me, ich haven not thy owlder version of ye "th"). Ich thinke, that owlso a Middle Engerlish Wikisourca wuld be more attractive, as it arteth lichter, to finde middle engerlish scriptaes than fionding ye correct wurds fore scribing newe. And, it is wirkily a probleme withe ye Middle Engerlish, becors, for exampul, my middle engerlish goes thru a mixty of gaidhlg and cumrae. And I musseth scribe that there, as thee certainerly can see, were more dialecterly spoken or scribben ME's than wirkily a standard ME. And thenne, it wuld be useful, owlso in the Angle-Saxn Wikipaedia, to placeer a transerlation into Moderne Engerlish beneeth ye Article. Hoping that at leest a fiuw of my ideas wille be userd, --195.14.223.201 09:48, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Hwie spriekt noch Old-Engelsh!? --195.14.223.201

It's really easier said than done to create a standard. It would certainly be simple to fix those pages already created, but since spelling wasn't quite standardized even at that time (the Pearl-poet would use different spellings within one work), one could be writing in what is technically a mixture of different dialects and not know it, and it would be difficult to clean up. I don't like the Chancery Standard, not because of difficulty, because it is probably the easiest dialect used and was standardized, but because it's from a very late period within Middle English usage and, as mentioned earlier, is boring. I would not be against using it. I just think that an earlier version would probably be more truly Middle English. --Qmwne235 22:34, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I second JamesR1701E's statement. Also, I believe based on the example of the (Modern) English Wikipedia that consistency within an article (Commonwealth vs. American English) is much more important than consistency over the entire Wikipedia, and that dialects should be accepted as long as they are very similar to the set standard, whatever that is. --Qmwne235 22:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow, you know there's something wrong when you've replied to yourself twice. Anyway, I retract my previous comment. We probably shouldn't use early Middle English. A handful of editors have already set a precedent that I believe would be more convenient to follow, even though it's really a mix of words from various points in the evolution of the language.


 * P.S. Most of us speak Modern English, and since this isn't an article it isn't necessary to write in Middle English here. --Qmwne235 00:37, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, honestly, I'd like to see this move forward and become a wiki. The dialect, although important, probably not that important in the long run. I propose that instead of worrying about dialect, we let people do whatever dialect, and we create a dictionary that has the varied forms. Also if a particular part is brought into question, then the author presents a defense of it. I don't care what dialect of Middle English, so long as it's Middle English. (We could also have varied dialect pages, such as a Kentish or Midlands dialect variation of a page). Otherwise I say we got to get ahead with this. I want to help as much as I can.--Blackkdark 21:44, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Certaynly it is hard to playse every man, by-cause of dyversite and chaunge of langage. - 76.69.250.213 15:24, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

2
Heh, the paragraph under "Purpose" is actually modern English with all the ths replaced by þ. The rest of the page looks more legitimately Middle though. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 19:03, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

except how can you control that? I'm not sure. --69.244.123.182 06:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, we'd need to figure outhow to say words such as "appreciate" in Middle English. I'll work on finding synonyms that would work. --Qmwne235 22:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, I did the best I could, feel free to rip it to shreds. I know my use of "ialloued" is questionable, but it has the connotation of appreciated, and I couldn't find an exact synonym. --Qmwne235 00:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Ars-Metrike
Will this be included as an article? if so, will it be modern knowledge written in Middle English? or the knowledge of the time? Kittybriton (Kittybriton's home page--64.9.120.91 03:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Þe lore shalt beeþ of newe tyme. Looken at þe Latin Wikipaedia, which haþ a page on a wepne of þe grot! --Gray Porpoise 01:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. I included a little bit on the armour article about modern armour, and we shouldn't have to act Middle English to speak it. --Qmwne235 00:46, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Special:Allpages
Special:Allpages

þat costeþ noght
"þat costeþ noght" - I don't know Middle English, but since I know German I guess this means "that costs nothing"? You know, Wikipedia is free as in freedom, not as in free beer... -- MF-W {a, b} Visit IRC! 17:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I speak Proto-Mediaevel-Limburgish very good (to be honest; I wrote over 40 words! Yes, really 40 out of 9000) and it sounds and looks like Old/Middle English. Dat kostč nōgt is Plātter (Proto-Mediaevel-Limburgish) for which doesn't have a price/that costs nothing. So, yes you're right and it isn't a good translation. Maybe something like þat frē is is better. --Ooswesthoesbes 17:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the point is that it doesn't cost anything to use it. "Frē" is not a good translation; it more closely refers to freedom than cost. I support the current translation, as there is no other alternative I can think of. --Qmwne235 00:39, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't speak Middle English, but I can speak Old Limburgish. It seems to me that þat costeþ noght is an error. In Plātteren (Old Limburgish) maybe something like dēn frē an-wōrkedan wisdōmbōk. Translation: the encyclopedia everbybody can work on. Maybe this is an optional for Middle English too? --Ooswesthoesbes 06:09, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see what you mean - freedom is the desired connotation. Using Ooswesthoesbes's idea, that would be "on whiche everychoun/alle can worke", roughly. Well, we'll need more input, and be the traffic on this test, that'll take a long time to get. --Qmwne235 00:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Interwiki
It seems that many other test projects are using interwiki links, whereas Middle English largely is not. Should we be using them? --Qmwne235 00:37, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Main Page
Hello! Please move "Wp/enm" to a subpage "Wp/enm/Main_Page" with "Main Page" translated. And note that you need to request a wiki at RFL, though I think it will probably be rejected... SPQRobin 00:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

where to learn middle english?
i want to contribuite but i cant find a middle english course or lessons, any help? --190.250.43.104 19:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I know it's difficult to find sites that provide material to learn Middle English, if you don't know ask me ;) I know Middle English because I learnt Old English it helps, I also searched on the internet but it's hard to find. --Stardsen (talk) 00:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Piers Ploughman
I am certainly no authority, but this Everyman paperback sitting on my desk beside the teamug is helpful:

The Vision of Piers Plowman: A Complete Edition of the B-Text, ed. A.V.C. Schmidt, Balliol, Oxford.

Dent, 1978, 1987; Everyman, 1978, 1987.

It has a 26-page glossary in fine print, e.g.
 * wortes, vegetables

and a single page of Latin and French terms.

The poem itself is 263 pages of Middle English, glossed down the right-hand side.

In my limited experience, similarly glossed editions of The Canterbury Tales are easier to find than this book, which is why I bought Piers for 25c.

Good luck, Varlaam (talk) 16:27, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

But...
You know enm.wikipedia cannot be created, right?--Seonookim (talk) 04:22, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Contributors to this test will sooner or later get aware of it, probably. But we have an extra section for such wikis on I:Featured wikis. One can never know if policy won't change in the future, and the Incubator community has made no decision to disallow test-wikis in extinct languages. -- MF-W {a, b} 05:01, 9 June 2013 (UTC)


 * If the policy can be changed for Wp/grc, then enm might be made to follow.
 * There has certainly been no shortage of aborted Wikipedia projects for living languages that had less life to them than the "dead" languages often do.
 * Varlaam (talk) 16:45, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

"Ðe list below"
The project tends to use thorn in "the", hence Þe. Is eth valid? Varlaam (talk) 15:23, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * And shouldn't that list be a "liste"? Varlaam (talk)
 * It doesn't have to be a "liste", although the s in list should probably be long, so "li&#383;t" or "li&#383;te". "&ETH;e" is valid, but it probably be "&THORN;e" because the rest of the phrase isn't super-archaic like the spelling "&ETH;e" is.  JustinCB (talk) 00:27, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

project deletion request?
--Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 14:49, 12 September 2017 (UTC)


 * It appears that this project will stay for the time being. 66.210.249.135 22:17, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Not including "ſ" in page titles?
I have notices in some pages, such as Wp/enm/Scottish langage an "s" is being used in page titles instead of "ſ", is there any reasoning for this? — The preceding unsigned comment was added by GoodClover (User talk:GoodClover • Special:Contributions/GoodClover).


 * Looks like I forgot to put the "ſ". Feel free to fix any other ones you find. --CanadianToast (talk) 16:01, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
 * @GoodClover, if you are still active, can you explain when should I use ſ, and when s? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 21:57, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
 * @Gifnk dlm 2020 I've just followed the rules listed at Long s, they may not always be correct, but they're generally ok to follow. --GoodClover (talk) 09:23, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 * @GoodClover, sorry for the late reply, but this article refers to the rules used in the 17th and 18th century. I didn’t find any info about the use of long s in Middle English (11th-15th century). -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 08:52, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Completely redesign the main page
It doesn’t make sense to put a list of all the articles in the main page especially since it’s possible to see the same list either using the category or by looking all the pages with the prefix wp/enm/. I think that we should list articles of things relevant to the Middle English, sort of like in Norfolk Wikipedia], they wrote a list of things relevant for the Norfolks. I think that their main page is very good and maybe we can even directly translate it to Middle English. Also we can take inspiration from Norman Wikipedia and Old English Wikipedia. I would like to hear your thoughts about this. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 16:18, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * By a direct translation I mean of everything except things about Norfolk and Pitcairn. Those should be replaced with things relevant for the Middle English. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 06:58, 10 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I think it's a good idea. --CanadianToast (talk) 00:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)


 * @CanadianToast, I copied it and changed. Can you please check if the new main page is ok? Also feel free to add or remove subjects - This is Middle English Wikipedia nor Norfolk Wikipedia, the title pages don’t have to look the same. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 19:00, 11 February 2021 (UTC)


 * @Gifnk dlm 2020 It looks fine to me. --CanadianToast (talk) 22:30, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

logo on the front page
the "wikipaedia" logo is rendered like this as of feb 26, 2021: W IKIPAEDI A the small caps text uses the HTML small tag. this poorly replicates the wikipedia logo's proportions, and fails to display in the mobile view. by removing the small tag, changing the text to say WikipaediA (yes, the capitals are important) and using appending  will display it like this: WikipaediA this way, it looks better, and renders on mobile. the only problem i can find is that it might look strange seeing WikipaediA for anyone using screen readers.

here's the full logo with the new code: Jkrosado (talk) 18:22, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
 * @Jkrosado Thanks very much. --CanadianToast (talk) 21:51, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Citations?
Should wp/enm pages have citations and references? 184.13.87.238 16:35, 27 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I tried to put citations in Wp/enm/Texas, but the problem is that I don’t think that option currently exists. I simple English Wikipedia which I use as a reference point before editing in Wp/enm, if I edit using visual editing, I see the option “Cite”, but in Wp/enm I don’t. Does anybody know why is it so or should we contact the admins? -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 21:21, 3 March 2021 (UTC)


 * @Ebe123, do you know why can’t I cite sources and how to fix this? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 18:45, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Spelling of “will”
Would it be possible to change “will” on the main page to an older spelling such as “wvll” or “wole”? I would like your opinions on this. 184.13.63.239 16:45, 27 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I think it’s a very good idea, but I haven’t found any info in the internet to verify that the forms wvll and wole were used. I found in wiktionary the form wille, is this what you meant? Also, you can sign a message by typing ~ . -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 09:02, 28 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I found several quotes of the usage of “wull” on the Middle English Dictionary by the University of Michigan. “We wull late in yow and youre”. 184.13.63.239 12:06, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Milestone - more than 200 articles
I would like to announce that this test wiki now has more than 200 articles. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 18:40, 28 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Btw, the main page says there are 202 pages, while the Category says there are 198 pages. Why do they say different things, and who to believe? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 19:30, 28 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Test. --OWTB (talk) 12:08, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Roman or Arabic numbers?
, pinging all the users who contributed in March. Btw, now you can use the ping template in this test wiki without it showing an error by typing Wp/enm/Ping. Back to topic, do you think that we should use Roman numbers like people in Medieval times did or use more conviennent Arabic numbers? You can see a page with Arabic numbers here and one with Roman numbers here. I personally think Roman numbers can be used from time to time for small numbers only but I would love to hear other opinions as well. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 14:11, 21 March 2021 (UTC)


 * I pinged much more users, but fro some reason only some of them show up. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 14:12, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * @Gifnk dlm 2020 I added support for up to 20 users in the Template:Wp/enm/Ping, though a module might be the better solution in the long term. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 14:22, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much! -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 15:27, 21 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Anyways, back to topic. Do you think we should use Roman numbers or Arabic numbers? -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 11:12, 22 March 2021 (UTC)


 * I've used the Arabic numerals for simplicity, but now that I think about it, I guess whatever was used by Middle English speakers back in the day should be used. However, as I was writing this, I did a quick Google search, and I just found out that this is easier said than done, because apparently they used Roman numerals, but there were some rare instances of Arabic numerals in the 15th century. I guess Roman numerals should be used since their Middle English use was more common, but I also have some bias towards Arabic numerals because of their simplicity. Nevertheless, I will use Roman numerals in this test wiki from now on, no matter how much pain it will cause me. NASAPeepo (talk) 17:16, 23 March 2021 (UTC)